Breiviks masterplan VS his rampage

[Majd100]

Europe has had a period of enlightenment, about 100yrs, in which christianity was fiercely criticised and it changed society for the better. Islam has had no such period, and i think it simply isn't used to such critcism yet.

Since the liberation of our nations from the western occupation, we are fighting for democratic societies. As I informed you in my previous post, political Islam rise after Afghanistan war in 80s, before that most of our nations were liberals |(pro-left or nationalists). In 80s the West supported Mujahideen against the Soviet. When those Mujahiden completed their tasks, they returned back to their countries to create troubles, and later they established Al-Qaeda.

Political Islam is new phenomena, and most of our countries, were secular after they succeed to kick out the imperialists.

 

[Majd100]

I don't think it is rationally defensible that religion has no causal influence on peoples behavior or on culture, but that culture does. For one, evo already falsified this. But just look at muslims praying 5 times a day. If islam does not affect their behaviour, then why are they praying 5 times a day? ... The quran (and hadith and sharia) are full of regulations on how to live life. Acting according to them is the esssence of being muslim (if being a muslim is not about islam, then what is it?). It is very common among muslims to blame all the bad on culture, and all the good on islam. After all, if islam is true, then of course it is all good, and all the bad must be something else.

Btw i live in europe aswell, the examples in my previous post are a summary of facts of events happening in cities in europe. Yes, europe is not "burning", but I always thought we left the bad parts of religion behind us, only to find that there is a much worse version spreading in society now.

Islam was superior in the middle ages. There are many schools in Islam, with complete different ideas. We have no Pope in Islam to declare crusade. You can find Sufi Muslim with spiritual peaceful life. Sufi Muslims have nothing to do with politics or daily life. On the other hand you can find salafi muslins who believe resisting the invaders of Muslims and the dictators.

It is not logical to integrate Islam in one militant or religious school, while there are hundreds or thousands of Islamic schools were established in the last 1400 years. Muslims are majority of more than 50 nations and representing 23% of the world populations...

 

[WhoWee]

Islam was superior in the middle ages. There are many schools in Islam, with complete different ideas. We have no Pope in Islam to declare crusade. You can find Sufi Muslim with spiritual peaceful life. Sufi Muslims have nothing to do with politics or daily life. On the other hand you can find salafi muslins who believe resisting the invaders of Muslims and the dictators.

It is not logical to integrate Islam in one militant or religious school, while there are hundreds or thousands of Islamic schools were established in the last 1400 years. Muslims are majority of more than 50 nations and representing 23% of the world populations...

What does any of this have to do with a the "masterplan" of Breivik?

 

[Majd100]

What does any of this have to do with a the "masterplan" of Breivik?

This is a reply to the pftest post.

No doubt that spreading misleading information, and Islamophobia play a rule in the development of the ideology of Breivik

 

[WhoWee]

This is a reply to the pftest post.

No doubt that spreading misleading information, and Islamophobia play a rule in the development of the ideology of Breivik

There might be doubt?

 

[pftest]

What you read is wrong.

Only Saudi Arabia and Iran (7% of Muslims) following the Sharia laws, while the rest of Islamic world are secular

You can find many girls wearing bikini on the western and eastern coasts of Mediterranean from Morocco to Syria.

I had been living in Belgium for 10 years and now I am in Jordan. You can say that many of our female students here (75% of Jordanian universities students are females) have same rights and choices as European.

Jordan is relatively conservative society, but if you visit Lebanon, Syria, Morocco, Tunisia, and Algeria …. You will find that most of people are free to choose their life style.

The Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam (CDHRI) is a declaration of the member states of the Organisation of the Islamic Conference adopted in Cairo in 1990,[1] which provides an overview on the Islamic perspective on human rights, and affirms Islamic Shari'ah as its sole source. CDHRI declares its purpose to be "general guidance for Member States [of the OIC] in the Field of human rights".

OIC created the Cairo Declaration of Human Rights in Islam.[4] While proponents claim it is not an alternative to the UDHR, but rather complementary, Article 24 states, "All the rights and freedoms stipulated in this Declaration are subject to the Islamic Shari'ah." and Article 25 follows that with "The Islamic Shari'ah is the only source of reference for the explanation or clarification of any of the articles of this Declaration." Attempts to have it adopted by the United Nations Human Rights Council have met increasing criticism, because of its contradiction of the UDHR, including from liberal Muslim groups.[23] Critics of the CDHR state bluntly that it is “manipulation and hypocrisy,” “designed to dilute, if not altogether eliminate, civil and political rights protected by international law” and attempts to “circumvent these principles [of freedom and equality]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairo_Declaration_on_Human_Rights_in_Islam

Btw, i may have used the term "islamic state" loosely, i was referring to the OIC members. There are however more than 1 islamic state, for example Iran, Afghanistan, and more. The state religion of Jordan is islam. If women there have the same rights as in europe, then that's good, I am glad they don't follow the quran, hadith and sharia. I've said from the start that "muslim" is a hollow term. Many have little knowledge about islam, so they should not feel accused when it is criticised. I am not saying islam has no good to it, I am saying there is a bad and ugly side also and that unfortunately these are part of the core of islam and have horrific consequences.

I looked up women's rights in Jordan and found this:

Today, Jordanian women largely enjoy legal equality in freedom of movement, health care, education, political participation, and employment. And, while the attitudes of police officers, judges, and prosecutors regarding the treatment of victims of domestic violence and honor crimes have undergone a positive shift in recent years, gender-based violence remains a serious concern. Women may be severely beaten, or even murdered, if they disobey their male family members or commit an act deemed "dishonorable," such as socializing with an unrelated man.[35]*

There remains gender-based discrimination in family laws, in the provision of pensions and social security benefits, and on the societal level due to deeply entrenched patriarchal norms that restrict female employment and property ownership.[35] And women do not have the same status as men with respect to nationality. A Jordanian man may marry a foreigner and pass on his nationality to his children; women cannot. Nor can women pass on their nationality to their husbands.[39]

Women are no longer required to seek permission from their male guardians or husbands before obtaining or renewing their passports, but fathers may still prevent their children from traveling regardless of the mother's wishes. Muslim women are prohibited from marrying men of other religions unless the spouse agrees to convert to Islam, while Muslim men are permitted to wed Christian and Jewish wives.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Jordan#Women.27s_rights

It does seem like Jordans laws are improving, however they are still behind on western europe.

* Note to MarcoD: The bold part is virtually an exact quote from the quran, which states that a disobedient wife may be beaten and they may not look non-family males in the eye (among other things).

 

[Majd100]

Btw, i may have used the term "islamic state" loosely, i was referring to the OIC members. There are however more than 1 islamic state, for example Iran, Afghanistan, and more. The state religion of Jordan is islam. If women there have the same rights as in europe, then that's good, I am glad they don't follow the quran, hadith and sharia. I've said from the start that "muslim" is a hollow term. Many have little knowledge about islam, so they should not feel accused when it is criticised. I am not saying islam has no good to it, I am saying there is a bad and ugly side also and that unfortunately these are part of the core of islam and have horrific consequences

The OIC is related to countries with common Islamic heritage. You can check about the members of this organization to know that all these countries (except Iran and Saudi Arabia) are secular.
Could you imagine that Albania and Turkey follows the Sharia laws because they are members of the OIC?? By the way, Russia was granted a permanent observer seat at the OIC in 2005. They had been working for many years to be a full member in this organization because they have large Muslims minority. I wish you understand now the nature of this inter-governmental organization.

http://english.ruvr.ru/2011/06/28/52483945.html

There is no point to say that Islam has ugly side, because you can say that about any religion, civilization, ideology …… Christianity, Judaism, Communism, Capitalism, Western civilization, USA, Europe, all have ugly and horrible side according to many people. You can call somebody a devil, but others believe that he is a saint. We do not have ABSOLUTE reference to judge a complete ideology or religion. What so called human rights and democracy was used by the West ONLY in the last 60 years during the cold war. The holocaust, colonist era, annihilation of native people of America, slavery… were ugly and horrible side of the western civilization. Many people believe that Bush is great leader, but also many people believe that he was the bloodiest terrorist because he invaded Iraq and murdered more than 500000 Iraqi based on fake reasons. The West gave a lot of money to the Mujahideen in 80s and called them "good people" because they were fighting USSR. After the collapse of the Communism, they call their former ally in Afghanistan as "terror

 

[pftest]

The OIC is related to countries with common Islamic heritage. You can check about the members of this organization to know that all these countries (except Iran and Saudi Arabia) are secular.
Could you imagine that Albania and Turkey follows the Sharia laws because they are members of the OIC?? By the way, Russia was granted a permanent observer seat at the OIC in 2005. They had been working for many years to be a full member in this organization because they have large Muslims minority. I wish you understand now the nature of this inter-governmental organization.

http://english.ruvr.ru/2011/06/28/52483945.html

I get the impression that you agree with me that sharia law (which is part of islam) is not a good idea. Btw, i did not say all those countries have sharia law. Here is what i said:

Ive read that most islamic states (something like 55 out of 57) reject the universal human rights because they conflict with sharia law. Instead they made a sharia human rights thing, but this essentially leaves unprotected any non-muslim or anyone who acts unislamic.

...
Btw, i may have used the term "islamic state" loosely, i was referring to the OIC members.

Compare this with what wikipedia says:

On 30 June 2000, Muslim nations that are members of the Organisation of the Islamic Conference (now the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation) officially resolved to support the Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam,[22] an alternative document that says people have "freedom and right to a dignified life in accordance with the Islamic Shari’ah"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human_Rights

There is no point to say that Islam has ugly side, because you can say that about any religion, civilization, ideology …… Christianity, Judaism, Communism, Capitalism, Western civilization, USA, Europe, all have ugly and horrible side according to many people.

As i said before: Hitler killed many people, but so did Stalin. One evil is no excuse for the other. We can criticize nazism, communism, etc., why not islam? When we spot something ugly we should try to remove it from society.

 

[Majd100]

.

I looked up women's rights in Jordan and found this:



It does seem like Jordans laws are improving, however they are still behind on western europe.

* Note to MarcoD: The bold part is virtually an exact quote from the quran, which states that a disobedient wife may be beaten and they may not look non-family males in the eye (among other things).

There is a violence against women, and also violence against men as any society. Usually the human right organization focuses on the remote societies "Bedouins and small villages".

Also there is honor-killing in the Christian Arab community, so you can not link the violence against women to Islam.

As academic person, I see an observable improvement in the women situation in Jordan in the last 30 years. I feel happy to see that the majority of our universities students are female, and 93% of our society is educated people. Changing the societies takes years or decades; you can check the changes in the situation of the western women in the last 100 years.

What you claim that is part of Koran is incorrect.

Here is the only Koran verse about beating women:

Sura 4:34
“Men are the support of women as God gives some more means than others, and because they spend of their wealth (to provide for them). So women who are virtuous are obedient to God and guard the hidden as God has guarded it. As for women you feel are averse, talk to them suasively; then leave them alone in bed (without molesting them) and go to bed with them (when they are willing). If they open out to you, do not seek an excuse for blaming them. Surely God is sublime and great"

Explanations by ancient and modern scholars:

http://islamtomorrow.com/women/treatment.asp

 

[Majd100]

I get the impression that you agree with me that sharia law (which is part of islam) is not a good idea. Btw, i did not say all those countries have sharia law. Here is what i said:



Compare this with what wikipedia says:



As i said before: Hitler killed many people, but so did Stalin. One evil is no excuse for the other. We can criticize nazism, communism, etc., why not islam? When we spot something ugly we should try to remove it from society.

First, Muslims extremists are more dangerous on Muslims nations than on Europe. They are external problem for Europe, but they are internal and serious problem for us. It was a historical crime committed by the western governments when they decided to support the Afghan Mujahideen against the USSR. Those Mujahideen returned back to kill us randomly, a few years ago they bombed several hotels here in Amman.

Islam as a religion is the same as Christianity and Judaism. You can take the peaceful side or the extremist side and use it as a tool. It is as a nuclear plant, you can use it to develop the societies or to annihilate them.

I can present verses from Koran and Islam shows that this religion is the most peaceful ideology on the Earth and agree with democracy and human rights, also I can show you opinion of extremists Muslims "using Koran and Hadith" to prove that this is a fascist and retarded ideology. Islam is not just a political group with clear agenda; it is a religion who ruled the world for centuries. You can not judge it by a few words as good or bad. It depends how people interpret and use it.

 

[Majd100]

I get the impression that you agree with me that sharia law (which is part of islam) is not a good idea. Btw, i did not say all those countries have sharia law. Here is what i said:



Compare this with what wikipedia says:


.

It seems you misunderstood what mentioned in Wikipedia. Those countries believes that there is no conflict between human rights and shariah laws. They are working to interpret the Shariah based on modern laws, which is possible as I mentioned before. Islamic Shariah has many interpretations; you can make it fit with the current human rights and democracy. In 10th century, the first 4 schools of Islamic shariah were established to review frequently the shariah laws based on the society's developments. These schools were one of the Islamic civilizations pillars in the Middle Ages. They succeeded to develop advance laws compared with the other nations in that time.

Here are the members of OIC (Turkey, Albania... included):

http://www.oic-oci.org/member_states.asp

Here are the observers (Russia and UN included):

http://www.oic-oci.org/member_states.asp

 

[WhoWee]

Does anyone want to discuss Breiviks masterplan VS his rampage?

 

[pftest]

Also there is honor-killing in the Christian Arab community, so you can not link the violence against women to Islam.

Asbestos also causes cancer. That doesn't prove that smoking doesnt... I can indeed link it, as it is black and white in the quran.

What you claim that is part of Koran is incorrect.

Im afraid not. All 3 translations on this page talk about beating/scourging the disobedient woman:

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/004.qmt.html

There are different translations of the verse, here is more information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An-Nisa,_34

First, Muslims extremists are more dangerous on Muslims nations than on Europe. They are external problem for Europe, but they are internal and serious problem for us. It was a historical crime committed by the western governments when they decided to support the Afghan Mujahideen against the USSR. Those Mujahideen returned back to kill us randomly, a few years ago they bombed several hotels here in Amman.

I agree that muslims themselves are the biggest victim of islam. They have to live in such a society, with horrific consequences. In europe the problems are only clear when in muslim-majority areas, such as certain parts of cities.

Islam as a religion is the same as Christianity and Judaism. You can take the peaceful side or the extremist side and use it as a tool.

Not all religions are identical. They may share the label "religion" but there are many differences (some of which I've pointed out in this topic). Yes, islam has a good side also, but that is beside the point. Even the worst of the worst on this planet have a good side to them. Smoking can make people feel relaxed and happy. Is that a good reason to deny its causal link with cancer and other diseases? The ugly part of islam is found in its essence, and so long as the quran, hadith and sharia arent changed (which will never happen) or people arent educated about these ugly parts, they remain a source for racism, sexism, intolerance and violence, as the world can bear witness right now.

 

[pftest]

Does anyone want to discuss Breiviks masterplan VS his rampage?

Yes we have gotten a bit off topic. I want to discuss this. I still wonder if his idea of a civil war is a rational possibility or if it is a delusion of a madman. The date of 2083 makes it hard to tell. At first it would seem ridiculous for civil war to start in scandinavia and western europe, but in yugoslavia it happened rather fast also. Religion there was also one of the lines on which society was split.

 

[WhoWee]

Yes we have gotten a bit off topic. I want to discuss this. I still wonder if his idea of a civil war is a rational possibility or if it is a delusion of a madman. The date of 2083 makes it hard to tell. At first it would seem ridiculous for civil war to start in scandinavia and western europe, but in yugoslavia it happened rather fast also. Religion there was also one of the lines on which society was split.

I seem to recall a history teacher listing the following:

1.) Money
2.) Religion
3.) Sex

Then he asked what the 3 had in common and we were stumped - no idea?

The answer of course is that all 3 are common causes of war.