BS in Physics: Debate on Career

[VoloD]

Hello,

I am physics senior at a 1st tier public university, Louisiana Tech. I am having a major crisis in my life concerning what I should do, so I really would appreciate if the advice was only constructive in nature. Any suggestions on websites that tailor to science undergraduates finding jobs would be much appreciated.

To start off, when I first came to Louisiana Tech, I was motivated to be an Electrical Engineering major. After desperately trying to do my best in sophomore classes, I kept flunking and ultimately switch to Physics since most of my credits transfered. At first I was doing pretty decent in physics (A,B's) but this year (senior year) I have been having a hard time in mechanics and electodynamics (C's). Being in this last year college has shown me that I really do want to work with consumer electronics and be in electrical engineering. My GPA though is not that great (between the initial bad grades in engineering and my average ones now). My gpa is 2.75. I considered medical physics, but with my grades that's more of a struggle than I anticipated, unless I go retake physics classes. And even then, I don't have immediate access to medical physics related research groups.

I don't care about going into a private, prestigious graduate school. And above all else, I definitely don't want to work in Education being a school teacher (though from what I research in AIP, that is not a very common occurence since 60% of undergrads go to graduate school and only 13% of the 40 % who are not in graduate pursue K-12 careers).

I really just want to do a Masters in Engineering for Electrical Engineering. I have been very emotionally depressed over my situation, but I just don't know a way out.

 

[MarneMath]

So what's the question or choices? The honest fact of the matter is you don't have many options at all. You either network to the best of your ability and prove to someone you are smarter than what's on paper and hope for a job, or you find some graduate school somewhere who really wants your funds to take you and prove you have the ability to do well. Regardless, of why you have your GPA, you have it, and there isn't much you can do about it.

Probably not what you wanted to hear, but these are the realities you find yourself in.

 

[Choppy]

If you're seriously considering the pursuit of an electrical engineering master's degree, you have to ask yourself why you expect to do better in that than you did in your undergraduate degree. Generally speaking graduate level work is more challenging than undergrad, and if you struggled there, then even if you can get in why should the outcome be different?

 

[ModusPwnd]

Have you talked to an adviser about doing a EE masters with only physics for your BS degree? I did and came to the conclusion that doing another BS in EE is a better choice. The amount of prereqs I would have had to take would be a few years of classes. Plus, as a BS student has a chance of doing a paid internship, a BS is cheaper and allows for the possibility of a PE license.

 

[VoloD]

To answer Choppy. I do understand that a masters degree is generally a harder course load. However, the school I am going to has a reputation for being relatively harder than the other public universities. Also, there a quite a number students I've meet from other parts of my state that have said they originally pursued engineering at my university, disagreed with the policies , and transferred to other institutions in which they are much happier.

Not saying the other schools are easier by any means, but they are for one not 1st tier (most are 2nd tier or lower other that the State university) and they focus more on student interaction and teaching. My school is primarily focused more on research. Facts I did not find out until much later in my education.

 

[VoloD]

Marne Math. I do recognize the realities of my situation. As someone who is advising, I understand that you are being honest. However, you should keep in mind that I, like most people, do not "choose" for things to sour in life or not to work out. I tried to the best of my ability to not be in my current situation. But it did not pan out the way I wanted.

I have made accounts on job search sites and posted my resume. I do hope to network more as I graduate from my university. I do plan on applying to schools that have lower GPA standards (as I said I know I won't make it to anywhere like Berkeley, neither do I care). I am not sure if I should try to make personal campus visits or not though.

 

[VoloD]

I have considered getting another Bachelors degree Modus. I have not yet spoken with my advisor about this issue though, and thank you, for I never really considered chatting with him over this. The only concern is that I was under the impression that I can't get student loans for another BS degree.

In all honesty, I think that I can handle the typical BS in EE from the rigor of my undergrad physics classes. The concepts we learned at physics were much harder generally speaking. I can solve problems easily now that back when I first started in engineering, would have been difficult. My professors actually explained how processes worked and expected us to know them as well. I am not afraid of the workload, I just don't like my universities policies on engineering.

 

[mpresic]

I have not thought about this in depth. If you are a citizen of US at least at one time the federal government hired physicists for labs and weapons work. The USAJOBs website may be useful to you. Of course, you must be a citizen (and probably) be subject to background checks for clearances. For example unless you are over 50 you may need to (or have registered) for selective service (i.e. military draft).

(Currently I have not had much luck with the USAJOBs, probably due to the sequester. There are military base closings you hear about.)

Another possibility, my GPA as and undergrad was low. I saw there were some (specialized) graduate schools (Oregon Electrical ?, GM motors?, maybe Embry-Riddle) associated with industry, that had lower requirements, although I maybe wrong on this point, espc Embry-Riddle.

If Navy is looking, a lot of nuclear engineers got their start onboard submarines. I suspect it is not your first (or second) choice. I do think the military does have a way of developing talent, and it is a good answer for many.

 

[caldweab]

The navy nuclear propulsion course is actually a good option. You could make a nice salary with benefits, sign on bonuses and have them pay for your graduate studies. Not only that depending on your rating you may get electrical engineering experience. Seriously see what the navy has to offer, it's a 6 year commitment but they will pay for graduate school and you can move on from there. Not many people enjoy their first jobs anyway

 

[VoloD]

Mpresic and caldweab. Thank You for the advice. I find it funny because actually I was looking into different option for science majors in the military. In all honestly, Ill take both of your suggestions and see where they go. My only concern is that I don't know how to swim ( had bad experience with water when I was a kid :( ) But Ill do whatever it takes to move forward in my life.

 

[VoloD]

Oh, mpresic. I am only 22 years old and yes I am registered for selected services.

 

[analogdesign]

Two points:

1. I know two people who served as Nuclear Officers aboard submarines after undergrad. One now has a Ph.D. in Electrical Engineering from UC Davis and the other has a Ph.D. in Physics from UC Berkeley. It's a strong program and you get really *concentrated* experience. It's intense.

2. What makes you think EE courses will be easier than your physics courses? I started out in Physics and went over to Electrical Engineering because I found EE more difficult. The more heuristic engineering approach is a different way to solve problems... some find it easier, some find it harder to grasp than proof-based physics and math.

 

[VoloD]

Analogdesign. I am not in ANYWAY saying that EE is easier than physics. I apologize if there is mis-communication. All I am saying is that I feel that I can successfully handle a EE program if I tried it again, as long as it is not at my current university. If I were to go to a lower tiered school that wasnt only focused on engineering, I would probably be better off grade and careerwise. I left my schools EE program because I was struggling, even though I understood the concepts of the material. I learned the hard way that understanding = good grades is not always true. I am not dumping on engineering, I want to be one. I just don't want to pursue it at my university because I feel there is more institutionalized difficulty than conceptual difficulty.

 

[analogdesign]

Fair enough, and I have to agree with you the understanding is only weakly correlated to your grades. I wasn't saying that you were dumping on engineering, I just got the impression you expected it to be easier. Clearly that is not the case and I misunderstood.

Wanting to be an engineer is 3/4 of success, in my opinion. if you get a physics BS you will have to take some remedial courses as part of your MSEE program. This may or may not be a problem for you. If you can figure out a way to get a BSEE it will be much easier for you.

 

[VoloD]

I know that taking EE BS classes is inevitable. It won't be a problem for me to take those classes somewhere else, because I know its just another milestone toward my goals. Whether I get a BS or not in EE depends on how long all the required BS in EE classes take me. If it is only two full years of BS classes, I won't get the BS in EE.

 

[MarneMath]

Quick note about Navy Nuke program.
1)If you're talking about Enlisting into becoming a Navy Nuker, then have fun.
2)If you're taking about becoming an Officer through Nuclear Training Program. You're not competitive for it. I haven't heard nor met Navy Nuke Officer with a less than 3.33. Reality, in a time for reduction of forces, 3.5 is probably a more accurate minimum. Even for a standard non-technical rate/mos I suspect 3.2 would be required for an OCS candidate.

 

[mal4mac]

As you are into consumer electronics, why not work at a consumer electrical store, or in the appropriate section a large general purpose store (Walmart, or wherever...) Or what about becoming a lab technician? Someone I know went in on the ground floor of retail in a big supermarket, now he's CEO, earning more than any five professors. On the other hand, I've known many lab technicians with few qualifications, most of them appeared to be having a great time. Money not great, but enough. All-in-all, no need to get depressed, there's always something to get into. Just have a worst case fall back plan and you need never feel down.

 

[mpresic]

I have met a man with a physics degree who works removing viruses and doing computer systems backups. He also looked into high school teaching but prefers to work with laptops and home-computers.

 

[Evo]

To answer Choppy. I do understand that a masters degree is generally a harder course load. However, the school I am going to has a reputation for being relatively harder than the other public universities. Also, there a quite a number students I've meet from other parts of my state that have said they originally pursued engineering at my university, disagreed with the policies , and transferred to other institutions in which they are much happier.

Not saying the other schools are easier by any means, but they are for one not 1st tier (most are 2nd tier or lower other that the State university) and they focus more on student interaction and teaching. My school is primarily focused more on research. Facts I did not find out until much later in my education.

Your school ranks 190. http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/louisiana-tech-university-2008

In case you weren't aware.

Forbes rates it

Forbes 2013 edition of America's Top Colleges ranked Louisiana Tech as the 471st best college overall

But the problem here is your poor grades, which, I agree with Marne, is where you should be focused.

 

[VoloD]

MarneMath. I was not specifically referring to the Navy Nuke program. I did look it up at an earlier point in my collegiate education. So I know that its competitive. I am more considering being in the Navy for other technical careers outside of that program.

For the last time, quit coming off as being arrogant. I know that I am not the best of students, but I also know I not the worst. Also, I know of people who have come from similar backgrounds and through perseverance and applying the right effort have become successful.

Bottomline. Stop demeaning people who are in a worse situation than your own. Just because everything "perfect" in your career life does not give the right to disown other people efforts.

 

[VoloD]

Evo. I certainly know that my school is not a top school in the country. (As a matter of fact, I need to give you the email address of my Louisiana Tech President, he needs to reminded of that more than me). My school is really full of faculty who think they are the best thing ever, I know that they are not.

I mentioned my school is 1st tier for MY state of Louisiana, not 1st tier of the entire nation. And the other universities in my state, (other than the State and private colleges) rank even lower than Tech. Just because a school has low-rank nationally ( which I already knew) does not mean it is not more difficult than some of the other schools that surround it.

I know grades is where my biggest issue is. I have decided that whatever school I go to, I will invest more time and effort into learning the material proficiently, so that I can make better grades. As I said already, I won't come back to the school I am in now for anything else, Ill simply redouble my efforts at a lower tiered school

 

[caldweab]

Quick note about Navy Nuke program.
1)If you're talking about Enlisting into becoming a Navy Nuker, then have fun.
2)If you're taking about becoming an Officer through Nuclear Training Program. You're not competitive for it. I haven't heard nor met Navy Nuke Officer with a less than 3.33. Reality, in a time for reduction of forces, 3.5 is probably a more accurate minimum. Even for a standard non-technical rate/mos I suspect 3.2 would be required for an OCS candidate.

Stop giving inaccurate information. You need about a 2.8 to get into OCS and if you get high enough line scores on the ASVAB and qualify for the nuke program, you need at least a 3.5 or higher to qualify for reactor engineering which he wouldn't qualify for anyway because they require a degree in mechanical, nuclear or electrical engineering. Since when has there been a reduction in forces for navy nukes? Last time I went into see what they offered, the minute I said I was studying nuclear engineering the nuke program is all they wanted to talk about.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Stop giving inaccurate information. You need about a 2.8 to get into OCS and if you get high enough line scores on the ASVAB and qualify for the nuke program, you need at least a 3.5 or higher to qualify for reactor engineering which he wouldn't qualify for anyway because they require a degree in mechanical, nuclear or electrical engineering. Since when has there been a reduction in forces for navy nukes? Last time I went into see what they offered, the minute I said I was studying nuclear engineering the nuke program is all they wanted to talk about.

The "sequester" (across the board budget cuts across) and other cuts in the defense budget in the US likely means the reduction in forces in all branches of the US military, including the navy.

 

[StatGuy2000]

To the OP:

A GPA of 2.75 is not very impressive and will likely deny you the possibility of acceptance to most graduate programs, either in physics or engineering. MarneMath is just telling it like it is. Your focus right now should be to try to improve that GPA, and if that means staying another year or two and retake the physics courses, I suggest you should do so. In the absence of any internship or work experience, future employers and graduate admissions committee members will look at your grades first and foremost, and may well wonder why they would want to consider you as a potential employee versus those with higher grades or some other form of achievement that will be useful to them.

To be able to improve your GPA, you need to determine why you are flunking or doing so poorly in your courses. Is it the difficulty of the material, your study habits, etc.? Have you sought tutoring for subjects you are struggling with or spoken to your professors or an advisor? It's possible that certain subjects may take you longer to understand than others, in which case you need to work much harder in those areas than other students. These are the kinds of things you need to assess. You still have another year left, so you still have time to improve. It is not too late yet.

Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[VoloD]

Ok StatGuy 2000. As mentioned earlier, I know my grades are not in the best shape. Actually I only one more quarter to graduation ( 3 months) , so there nothing I can do about it at the current moment. I have decided that in the event I don't get into grad school or find a job, Ill simply apply the following year for taking BS classes in EE as a non-traditional student (again at another university, not Tech).

But there is some stuff I should clarify for you and others since apparently the only graduate schools that exist are prestigious ones in your minds.
1) There are some graduate schools that take people below 3.0 and in my state I have a few that I can apply to not including some in other states.
2) I have 2 research experiences and while they are not groundbreaking, I can say that I have them and what I've done in them
3) I already explained earlier that the way my university goes about it engineering programs is harder than most others "in my state". I will improve my study habits as you have suggested, but improving study skills can't always overcome "institutional difficulty" ie why I am going to leave for a lower tiered engineering university.

4) (More you and MarneMath than me) I know people who have gone to prestigious schools with higher GPA's , etc. And you know what, some of them are successful but a lot of them are working in low-paying lab tech positions, or still can't find a decent staff position at any university. Point being, just because you have the best stats does not always guarantee your success in life. There any plenty of people with great stats, but for reason not all of them end up successful or if nothing else not where they originally planned/wanted to be.

Tell you what, when I get into graduate school ill post you an acceptance letter. Fair. I am don't try to abrasive naturally, and I do appreciate your comments are far as improving study habits or improvising study time.

 

[mal4mac]

I know people who have gone to prestigious schools with higher GPA's , etc. And you know what, some of them are successful but a lot of them are working in low-paying lab tech positions, or still can't find a decent staff position at any university. Point being, just because you have the best stats does not always guarantee your success in life. There any plenty of people with great stats, but for reason not all of them end up successful...

Why do you think that a low paid lab technician is unsuccessful? I've known many who were very happy with their lives. Do you think that "grades", or "letters after name", or $$$ are the very definition of success? If so, why?

 

[heatengine516]

It would be great to get a lab tech position with a BS in physics.

 

[VoloD]

I understand that different people have different opinions on success. To answer mal4mac, there are a lot of people on sites like PF who think that having a the best grades or big name schools will always equal better jobs (ie in terms of money, benefits, travel etc.). I was not saying these were not great things to strive for, just that a lot of times only a select percent of people who get in turn out having everything they wanted from it.

To be fair, I do think $$$ is fair way to determine success. But that's my opinion because that's what I value in my life. I know there are people who would love to be lab techs and if they find joy in that, more power to them. But to me if the salary is below range hits below 45000-50000 starting, I don't find it worth my time. Unless it was used to say, get work experience to help apply for a particular job or graduate school, then it would be of value. Once again, I am referencing myself.

I wasnt saying anything against certain people you know. Only to those I mentioned in my last post that even being an academic super star does not always equal better opportunity in the long run.

 

[analogdesign]

You know, I read through all the responses and comments on here and I think your best bet is probably to suck it up and try to get back into the EE major so you can graduate with a BSEE. It will take a bit of time but I don't think you will have a lot of luck getting into a decent EE program for a MS without an MSEE. Think of it from their perspective. What's in it for them? Why would they give you a seat in the program and reject a qualified EE major?

There are a lot of good jobs out there with an EE degree, especially if you think outside the box and don't think if you don't get a job at Apple you're a failure.

 

[VoloD]

Analogdesign. I have been considering my options over the past comments. Depending on what a person is going through emotionally, its not as easy as them "sucking it up" as the expression implies and personally why I try not use it. A more adequate , professional way would be " you need come to terms with what has happened, and know that your detour is a time to learn from your mistake/trials and find the best alternative for yourself" which would be more substantial advice for anyone.

Anyway, I have decided to that I will apply for the masters program at the school that has lower standards for grades that I do meet. If I don't get accepted, then I will apply to said school/schools for their BS in EE as you are implying, since that would be a step to my goal of being an MS engineer.

But for the FINAL time analogdesign " I AM NOT GOING BACK INTO THE EE PROGRAM AT MY CURRENT INSTITUTION " I will follow the advice of improving study habits and possibly seeking out of class tutoring if needed for certain concepts I don't understand. But you and everyone else posting needs to get in your head that I am not re-attempting this again at Tech. I am going to another institution be it graduate school or 2nd undergrad. If you read my earlier comments you should know this.

 

[analogdesign]

Seriously, dude, you don't have to be a jerk about it. We're all giving you our time for free here and we're just trying to help.

 

[VoloD]

I apologize Analog, I didnt mean to come off rudely but had to get a point across. Honestly, I know that my issue boils down to three choices :

1) Apply for MS EE at a lower tier school with my limited research experience and see what happens
--again, there are a few schools that I do have a chance of getting into.
2) Apply for another BS, this time in EE at another "lower-standard institution" (since I feel that my I can't really grasp the concepts effectively (A's , B's) at my current university)
3) Simply pick another career path I want to pursue (besides education) and move on. (make another thread for questions related to this)

These are the only practical choices that I have. And I know what must do to progress in life, and I know that only I can motivate myself out of my depression.

And for those of you who may be naysayers about low gpa = you won't get into any graduate school. The schools I am applying to have general reputations for taking people at 2.5 and possibly lower, so there you have it.

 

[analogdesign]

Given those three I agree with your order. Your best cost/benefit is probably option 1, and really try your best to learn your stuff.

 

[MarneMath]

Stop giving inaccurate information. You need about a 2.8 to get into OCS and if you get high enough line scores on the ASVAB and qualify for the nuke program, you need at least a 3.5 or higher to qualify for reactor engineering which he wouldn't qualify for anyway because they require a degree in mechanical, nuclear or electrical engineering. Since when has there been a reduction in forces for navy nukes? Last time I went into see what they offered, the minute I said I was studying nuclear engineering the nuke program is all they wanted to talk about.

*sigh*
Maybe you should stop giving inaccurate information. When was the last time since RDOF that you seen an officer in OCS with a Gpa less than 3.25? What the cut off score is and what is actually accepted by the board are two different things. Secondly math is accepted for Navy Nuke Program provided such candidate has first year physics. Unlike you, I haven't just talked about the military, I spent nearly a decade in it.

Edit:
I submitted to early.

Anyway, I don't want you to think I don't completely understand how you feel. I was kicked out of my first school, which was a top 10 school, due to my GPA. I failed nearly every quarter I was there. I spent the years of my life in the Infantry and when I was forced retired, I went back to school and got all A's at a low no ranked school. I did well enough and got my Masters at a so called Southern Ivy, and now working on my PhD at probably a top 50 overall or top 25 if you look at my field ranking. Either way, I bring this up for two reasons.

1)There is always hope for people who wish to endure. You might be able to do well in your Masters and convince employers to hire you. Who knows. However, if you think simply going to school and getting that degree will be all you need you have completely misread this economy. You need to get your Masters and find internships, work for peanut and prove to the business community that you are a better employee than student, which isn't that rare to find.

2)Lastly, I mention the above, because I find people don't change without a reason or being forced to change. Unless you seriously make to improve your status as a student, you will flounder and just scrape by at a low tier graduate school, which proves nothing to no one. If you are serious at being a graduate student, and getting a masters degree, then your ability should be such that you can take any freshman class in your field and pass it regardless of university. What I'm trying to get at is, you need to determine why you struggle at EE, even if your school makes it hard, I promise Georgia Tech makes it harder but somehow someone makes it with an A there. While, I don't believe grades are everything, I do believe they do reveal work ethic and ability to comprehend information quickly.

 

[VoloD]

Thank You MarneMath. I definitely apologize about the comment on you always having the "perfect career life" in an earlier post. Yes your right, struggle/heartbreak/disappointment, etc. all have a way of changing people, even if only slightly. I do believe that my current institution makes it hard for my academic abilities, but that still does not change the fact that I need to work that much harder at another university to prove that I can handle whatever they throw at me concerning EE. I do not deny the importance of grades, in fact I wish I could improve my GPA more before I graduate.

As for "working for peanuts", I don't mind getting a small time job while in school or even after I complete my bachelors in order to build my experience as a worker. I do have strong work ethic, and my drive to pursue my dream of being an engineer is enough for me find the strength to face challenges on the job. Finding interns is pretty hard and honestly I don't know how to best go about finding them given my current situation, but Ill manage because I have too. Again thanks.