History Bush: The Greatest Blunder in US History

[pelastration]

I said Flop-Flop is a Flop-Flop: everything he does is a FLOP!
Health, energy, war, environment, human rights, civil right, preventing 9/11, international relations, economy, job, SECURITY (!), ... , all flops. ... that's why I call him no longer Bush but give him his new nickname Flop-Flop. President Flop-Flop.

Flop-Flop is incredible. Having created largest deficite ever and blaming Kerry for creating deficte for his health plan. Bringing more security in US by reducing police force in US and putting more police on the streets in Bahgdad. Haha. And you buy that! You admire Flop-Flop's logic.

And btw, I didn't say Flop-Flop was a Flip-flopper.

 

[Spectre32]

Get real. What is his justification for the war in Iraqa? How many times has that changed. Was he not very against the 9/11 commission? Now what? Are you seriously contending that you have never seen any evidence that Bush has ever flip-flopped? Just read the news, unless you consider it all to be left-wing lies.

His justification for the war in Iraq was that they had WMD's. They havwn't found any, but that was his justification, never really changed all that much. He kept saying that they had WMD's and then he tossed in other crap into the mix, about this or that. The 9/11 Commision thing was shady, I didn't understand that.

 

[Spectre32]

preventing 9/11

Christ, YET AGAIN... IT wasn't all his fault. He was Clintions for christs sake, he let Al Quida build up to the strength it was, and HE DID NOTHING. It's not all of bush's fault.

 

[pelastration]

It's not all of bush's fault.

I agree. But most.

 

[studentx]

Are carbombs and suicide bombers a new tactic?

A truck full of explosives was used both in Oklahoma City and in the '93 attack on the World Trade Center. Suicide bombers have been a fact of life in the Palestinian-Israel conflict for quite a few years.

While you can't defend every attack successfully, it certainly shouldn't have been a surprise that they would occur.

It doesn't matter whether carbombs and suicidebombers are a new tactic or a surprise, there still is little or nothing you can do against it. Whatever tactic the military would have used to fight this war, carbombs can make it a blunder.

I am sorry, but I don't understand who you are referring to with your pronoun 'you'.

Furthermore, are you really asking how the administration might have prepared for them, or are you asking how they might have anticipated that they might be used?

What exactly is your point, and who are you addressing it to?

With "you" i mean anyone. I am asking what can be done against carbombs and suicidebombers? The only thing i can think of is changing the minds of those who damage themselves to damage others. The world is sweeping up this hatred for Bush and this is the blunder in my eyes. This IS the feeding ground for terrorism.

 

[Artman]

Using your argument, there were quite a few other countries which should have had their governments replaced before we ever got around to giving Iraq a new government. Comparing life expectancy, literacy rates, poverty and human rights abuses:

Iraq had the 47th lowest human development index and ranked 15th in human rights abuses.
Sierra Leone worst in human development index, 5th in human rights abuses.
DemRepCongo had the 21st lowest human development index and ranked 1st in human rights abuses.
Rwanda ranked 9th lowest in HDI and 2nd in human rights abuses.
Pakistan 26th and 11th.
There's several other examples from the following lists :
http://hdr.undp.org/reports/global/2001/en/pdf/Addendum4.pdf
http://hdr.undp.org/reports/global/2001/en/pdf/back.pdf
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Tables/4_col_tables/0,5737,258329,00.html

All are a perfect breeding ground for hatred and power struggle. FYI - Afghanistan ranked 16th in human rights abuses and in the bottom five for HDI.

You can't (and shouldn't) replace every government that is doing an inept job. The decision on Iraq should have been based solely upon Iraq's threat to us, either directly or indirectly.

What is stopping us from helping the people in those countries? If it is their own leaders and not US supported UN sanctions, the hatred is not necessarrilly aimed at the USA. Pakistan aided us during the war in Afghanistan, doesn't sound like the government their is as great a threat right now. Iraq was war torn from a fight with the USA, under sanctions supported by the USA, and Iraqi state supported terrorist organizations had already attacked varous US entities.

Also, weapons of mass destruction had existed in Iraq during the First Gulf War, what makes all of you think that they were kept under tight enough security to keep state sponsered terrorist groups from gaining access to them, even if Sadaam had complied with the UN ban?

Is this really the worst blunder in USA history? I still am not convinced.

 

[Artman]

A few have disagreed with the title of this thread or feel that you should wait until the results are into decide whether Iraq was a blunder or not.

It's the soundness of the thinking and the planning that determine whether it is a blunder or not. If a person makes a huge blunder and still succeeds, it's just lucky - not good planning. Likewise, good planning and decision making don't ensure success - they just make it extremely likely.

In spite of a multitude of people who's job it is to know, the Bush administration invaded Iraq on bad information with an insufficient number of forces and there is no sign that they had prepared for anything other than a best case scenario.

It's a blunder regardless of how things eventually turn out.

Whose blunder though? The CIA was crippled during the previous administration. It takes years to develope inside information networks in non-friendly nations.

 

[BobG]

What is stopping us from helping the people in those countries? If it is their own leaders and not US supported UN sanctions, the hatred is not necessarrilly aimed at the USA. Pakistan aided us during the war in Afghanistan, doesn't sound like the government their is as great a threat right now. Iraq was war torn from a fight with the USA, under sanctions supported by the USA, and Iraqi state supported terrorist organizations had already attacked varous US entities.

Also, weapons of mass destruction had existed in Iraq during the First Gulf War, what makes all of you think that they were kept under tight enough security to keep state sponsered terrorist groups from gaining access to them, even if Sadaam had complied with the UN ban?

Is this really the worst blunder in USA history? I still am not convinced.

Pakistan's Musharraf made quite a turn around when we invaded Afghanistan - at significant risk to his own life, no less. Considering Pakistan's environment, it didn't take a huge intellect to know who'd be the second country invaded if Al-Qaida escaped across the border. Libya has also made some big changes. Invading Aghanistan doesn't solve the problem in itself, but it sure made it seem dangerous to be at the top of the list for harboring terrorists. In other words, Afghanistan was a good start at reducing the risk of terrorism. Continuation along those lines would have been good.

Syria had a much closer association with terrorists than Iraq. Iran's leaders are much more closely associated with Islamic extremist ideology than Hussein was. In fact, Hussein's ideology was almost the opposite of Al-Qaida's. He believed in a secular tyrannical dictatorship. Your Islamic extremist groups believe in a religious tyrannical dictatorship. While some kind of Iraq-terrorist link was possible (like giving them money or offering bounties as long as they stayed past the end of a ten-foot pole), it was highly unlikely that an Islamic extremist group such as Al-Qaida would have been allowed to set up shop in Iraq when Shiite groups were causing Hussein problems.

There is one valid reason for invading Iraq and it has very little to do with terrorism. I see Iraq under Hussein as somewhat similar to Yugoslavia under Tito. Both countries were being held together only through the oppression of a dictator. The world tolerated Tito because of the fear of what would happen after him. Those fears came true.

The world would have tolerated Hussein until his death, hoping one of his sons could maintain control. How long the Iraq problem could have been pushed into the future is unknown. Eventually, a post-Hussein Iraq would be a problem that had to be dealt with. Waiting for the problem to occur would have brought in a much stronger coalition than the one the US took in by forcing matters and, more importantly, would have allowed us to concentrate on problems that are a higher priority right now.

P.S. - Your arguments are always good, Artman. At least, I have to think about yours awhile.

P.P.S. - Where did JohnDubya go? I don't think I could consider any of his posts intelligent, but it still bothers me that he hasn't been around for awhile. Not that I'd admit to actually missing him.

 

[pelastration]

I like Michael Moore's comments:

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php?messageDate=2004-09-22[/B]

He ends with:
"I know you hate the words "flip" and "flop," so I won't use them both on you. In fact, I'll use just one: Flop. That is what you are. A huge, colossal flop. The war is a flop, your advisors and the "intelligence" they gave you is a flop, and now we are all a flop to the rest of the world. Flop. Flop. Flop.

And you have the audacity to criticize John Kerry with what you call the "many positions" he has taken on Iraq. By my count, he has taken only one: He believed you. That was his position. You told him and the rest of congress that Saddam had WMDs. So he -- and the vast majority of Americans, even those who didn't vote for you -- believed you. You see, Americans, like John Kerry, want to live in a country where they can believe their president.

That was the one, single position John Kerry took. He didn't support the war, he supported YOU. And YOU let him and this great country down. And that is why tens of millions can't wait to get to the polls on Election Day -- to remove a major, catastrophic flop from our dear, beloved White House -- to stop all the flipping you and your men have done, flipping us and the rest of the world off.

We can't take another minute of it.

Yours,

Michael Moore"


And now the Republicans ask Prosecutors to Arrest Michael Moore.

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php?messageDate=2004-10-06 .

 

[pelastration]

try again

He ends with:
"I know you hate the words "flip" and "flop," so I won't use them both on you. In fact, I'll use just one: Flop. That is what you are. A huge, colossal flop. The war is a flop, your advisors and the "intelligence" they gave you is a flop, and now we are all a flop to the rest of the world. Flop. Flop. Flop.

And you have the audacity to criticize John Kerry with what you call the "many positions" he has taken on Iraq. By my count, he has taken only one: He believed you. That was his position. You told him and the rest of congress that Saddam had WMDs. So he -- and the vast majority of Americans, even those who didn't vote for you -- believed you. You see, Americans, like John Kerry, want to live in a country where they can believe their president.

That was the one, single position John Kerry took. He didn't support the war, he supported YOU. And YOU let him and this great country down. And that is why tens of millions can't wait to get to the polls on Election Day -- to remove a major, catastrophic flop from our dear, beloved White House -- to stop all the flipping you and your men have done, flipping us and the rest of the world off.

We can't take another minute of it.

Yours,

Michael Moore"

And now the Republicans ask Prosecutors to Arrest Michael Moore.

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php?messageDate=2004-10-06 .

 

[TENYEARS]

Ivan, what was done in IRAQ was no blunder, it was purposeful and rode on the emotions of the american people. It was obvious to me before he even began his smirking crusade, his purpose and his intent. I am certain of this. He will be held accountable. 200 billion it's only money right, but enough money to begin the ball rolling to what the world must do if it is to survive. Instead we will buy new arms. He wanted to completely emtpy the old stock pile so we could buy newer weapons. Well done. Well done. In the end america will pay dearly for his injustice. The dam fool. I do have one question? How many of you were on that band wagon after 9/11? How many?

 

[member 5645]

Ivan, what was done in IRAQ was no blunder, it was purposeful and rode on the emotions of the american people. It was obvious to me before he even began his smirking crusade, his purpose and his intent. I am certain of this. He will be held accountable. 200 billion it's only money right, but enough money to begin the ball rolling to what the world must do if it is to survive. Instead we will buy new arms. He wanted to completely emtpy the old stock pile so we could buy newer weapons. Well done. Well done. In the end america will pay dearly for his injustice. The dam fool. I do have one question? How many of you were on that band wagon after 9/11? How many?

bandwagon?

 

[kat]

if it were a Bush supporter giving incentives to vote, better believe the likes of Moore would be howling and demanding justice. Moore should know better, slippery slope and all that.

 

[kat]

How many! How many were tooting your horn before 9/11!
what is a bandwagon anyway? a wagon with a band? er...

 

[TENYEARS]

Kat, I like the avatar. 9/11 has more meaning to me than potentially any human in existence. On that day I achieved certainty. Certainty is an experience beyond the popular rush, beyond convinced, beyond thought, beyond reason. It's a place a truth is born. Like the woods of maine.

 

[member 5645]

Kat, I like the avatar. 9/11 has more meaning to me than potentially any human in existence. On that day I achieved certainty. Certainty is an experience beyond the popular rush, beyond convinced, beyond thought, beyond reason. It's a place a truth is born. Like the woods of maine.

When I read your post I experienced enlightenment, for it was deeper than anything I have read before. Suddenly all the the synapeses of my brain began to fire, my eyes dilated, and my soul became alive. For TENYEARS, when I read your post I was free. Like the hill country of Texas.

 

[kat]

Oh lord...

 

[member 5645]

Oh lord...

Kat, I like your avatar. Join us on our ride to existentialism. The events of 9/11 fire deep into the metaphysical and beyond...to the great bandwagon of truth!

 

[studentx]

The american stockpile of weapons has been emptied?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Okay here are the latest excuses for the invasion. It would be interesting to see how many post war reasons are given that were never mentioned before the war:

He was gaming the system
He was amassing a fortune

--C. Rice 10/10/04

In the last debate Bush complained:
He would still be living in a palace

Sure, this wasn't personal. Was Saddam's occupation of a palace a reason for the war?

 

[Artman]

P.S. - Your arguments are always good, Artman. At least, I have to think about yours awhile.

P.P.S. - Where did JohnDubya go? I don't think I could consider any of his posts intelligent, but it still bothers me that he hasn't been around for awhile. Not that I'd admit to actually missing him.

Thanks. I was just thinking your posts are very thought provoking. I like JohnDubya's posts as well.

 

[pelastration]

How many! How many were tooting your horn before 9/11!
what is a bandwagon anyway? a wagon with a band? er...

Bandwagon effect, economic term. Followers of new products.

 

[TENYEARS]

Bandwagon, the followers of anything which the masses follow even if it be off of cliffs. The popular belief of the day. Much like the majority of most forum members. Fish in bowls. When will you break out of your bowls? You don't even know you are in bowls, but the walls acknowleged quite well. Swim on fish and circle your bowls.

 

[member 5645]

Bandwagon, the followers of anything which the masses follow even if it be off of cliffs. The popular belief of the day. Much like the majority of most forum members. Fish in bowls. When will you break out of your bowls? You don't even know you are in bowls, but the walls acknowleged quite well. Swim on fish and circle your bowls.

I have entered a debate with yoda...

 

[Gokul43201]

I tell you once, and once again : there ain't no place for sarcasm in these forums.

 

[member 5645]

I tell you once, and once again : there ain't no place for sarcasm in these forums.

There's no place for ridiculous imagery instead of actual debate...errr, swim gokul!