Calculating the Size of the Universe

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the calculations and estimations of the size of the universe, particularly focusing on the distinction between the observable universe and the total universe. Participants explore various models, assumptions, and the implications of these estimates, as well as the tools and evidence used to support their claims.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that the radius of the universe is often cited as around 1.3x10^26 meters, but this is considered a minimum estimate rather than a definitive size.
  • There is a belief among some that the universe could be infinite, while others argue that the observable universe is approximately 90 billion light years in diameter.
  • Questions arise regarding the tools and methods used by reputable sources to estimate the minimum radius of the universe.
  • One participant expresses skepticism about the notion of the universe being perfectly spherical with Earth at its center, suggesting that this view lacks support.
  • Concerns are raised about the assumption that recessional velocities can exceed the speed of light, with some participants demanding observational evidence for such claims.
  • Discussions include the distinction between special relativity and general relativity, particularly in the context of cosmic expansion and the geometry of the universe.
  • Some participants argue that the current models of the universe, such as the Friedmann-Robertson-Walker (FRW) models, are supported by extensive observational data.
  • There is a contention regarding whether the observed recessional velocities greater than the speed of light have been confirmed, with some participants seeking more convincing data.
  • The conversation touches on the limitations of special relativity in explaining the expanding universe, emphasizing the necessity of general relativity for understanding gravitational effects.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the size of the universe, the validity of various models, and the interpretation of observational data. The discussion remains unresolved, with no consensus on the total size of the universe or the implications of current cosmological models.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the importance of distinguishing between the observable universe and the total universe, as well as the assumptions underlying different cosmological models. There are references to unresolved mathematical steps and the need for further observational support for certain claims.

  • #31
I have a naive perception of topology: the number of dimensions of any shape is that of the minimal euclidean space capable of embedding it. Your torus is 4D to me, even for something confined in its surface

the circle is a good example: unidimensional if envisioned from the interior, but in fact genuinely bidimensionnal
 
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  • #32
denism said:
Indeed I was not clear. I just wanted to say that authors talking about light connection rates in the expanding universe never make use of GR, but only derive their conclusions from the simple relationship cdt=a(t)*dl (note there is a typing error of sign in my previous equation).

ds^2 = 0 for a lightlike worldline in both special and general relativity.
denism said:
SR seems to be sufficient. Gravity and GR are generally not involved in the universe model used in these studies.

This is just plain wrong. In order to use the equation in your post above, the dependence of a\left(t\right) on t is needed. This is given by the solution of the differential equation

<br /> \left( \frac{da}{dt} \left(t\right) \right)^2 = H_0^2 \left( \Omega_{m0} a\left(t\right)^{-1} + \Omega_{r0} a\left(t\right)^{-2} + \Omega_{\Lambda 0} a\left(t\right)^2 + 1 - \Omega_{m0} - \Omega_{r0} - \Omega_{\Lambda 0} \right),<br />
where the constants \Omega_{m0}, \Omega_{r0}, \Omega_{\Lambda 0} are the current densities (relative to critical density) of matter, radiation, and dark energy, respectively. This equation comes from Einstein's equation of general relativity, i.e., it come form Einstein's theory of gravity.
denism said:
Furthermore, even SR seems to be not observed: calculations using speed substractions such as c-Vrec, rather resemble to classical mechanics ... even if I understood that Vrec is not a genuine speed.

With appropriate definitions of time and distance, c - V_rec is true in special relativity, and in the FRW cosmological models of general relativity
 
  • #33
George Jones said:
ds^2 = 0 for a lightlike worldline in both special and general relativity.

sure, SR no way contradicts GR

George Jones said:
This is just plain wrong. In order to use the equation in your post above, the dependence of a\left(t\right) on t is needed. This is given by the solution of the differential equation

<br /> \left( \frac{da}{dt} \left(t\right) \right)^2 = H_0^2 \left( \Omega_{m0} a\left(t\right)^{-1} + \Omega_{r0} a\left(t\right)^{-2} + \Omega_{\Lambda 0} a\left(t\right)^2 + 1 - \Omega_{m0} - \Omega_{r0} - \Omega_{\Lambda 0} \right),<br />
where the constants \Omega_{m0}, \Omega_{r0}, \Omega_{\Lambda 0} are the current densities (relative to critical density) of matter, radiation, and dark energy, respectively. This equation comes from Einstein's equation of general relativity, i.e., it come form Einstein's theory of gravity.


I disagree with you, the scale factor has first been naturally postulated because of the observation of Hubble. You describe one of the multiple a-posteriori attempts to calculate the expansion rate(s) from the universe constituents: (matter/energy and now the more exotic dark energy). These attempts are very interesting from a physical viewpoint but please do not inverse the string. a(t) did not emerge from matter/energy density calculations but was just postulated a-priori. To my knowledge its time-dependence has not been firmly established yet and it is likely to be underlain by different successive functions in the course of cosmic time

George Jones said:
With appropriate definitions of time and distance, c - V_rec is true in special relativity, and in the FRW cosmological models of general relativity

you are certainly right but this typically looks a Newtonian approach in Galilean coordinates: you know the celebrated thought experiment of Einstein, this approach would lead to the absurd conclusion that the speed of light emitted by a lamp in a train, depends on the speed of the train. Ironically, this is erroneous for the train but true for galaxies
 

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