Can anyone please verify/review this counterexample?

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The discussion revolves around verifying a counterexample to the conjecture that every positive integer can be expressed as p + a^2, where p is a prime or 1, and a is a non-negative integer. A proposed counterexample is 25, which can be expressed in various forms, but none of the resulting values for p are prime or 1. Participants debate the necessity of including all possible expressions for 25 and clarify that p must be a prime or 1, while also addressing the potential for non-integer values of a. The conversation emphasizes the importance of systematically checking all combinations to confirm the validity of the counterexample. Ultimately, the discussion highlights the complexities of the conjecture and the need for thorough verification.
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Homework Statement
Give an example to show that the following conjecture is not true: Every positive integer can be written in the form p+a^2, where p is either a prime or 1, and a##\geq##0.
Relevant Equations
None.
Disproof: Here is a counterexample:
Suppose p+a^2=25, where 25 is a positive integer.
Then we have 25=0+25
=9+16
=16+9
=21+4.
Note that none of 0, 4, 9, and 16 is prime or 1.
Therefore, not every positive integer can be written in the form p+a^2,
where p is either a prime or 1, and a##\geq##0.

Above is my proof/answer for this problem. Can anyone please review/verify if it's correct?
 
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Math100 said:
Homework Statement:: Give an example to show that the following conjecture is not true: Every positive integer can be written in the form p+a^2, where p is either a prime or 1, and a##\geq##0.
Relevant Equations:: None.

Disproof: Here is a counterexample:
Suppose p+a^2=25, where 25 is a positive integer.
Then we have 25=0+25
=9+16
=16+9
=21+4.
Note that none of 0, 4, 9, and 16 is prime or 1.
Therefore, not every positive integer can be written in the form p+a^2,
where p is either a prime or 1, and a##\geq##0.

Above is my proof/answer for this problem. Can anyone please review/verify if it's correct?
25=1+24 is missing, and why did you require ##a\geq 0##?
 
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Okay, so it should be the following:
Then we have 25=0+25
=1+24
=21+4
=9+16
=16+9.
Regarding a##\geq##0, I didn't require it, the problem statement had the condition so I included at the end of my proof.
 
Here is another one: ##x^2+x+41## is always prime for ##x\in \mathbb{N},## true or not?
 
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fresh_42 said:
Here is another one: ##x^2+x+41## is always prime for ##x\in \mathbb{N},## true or not?
Yes, it's true.
 
Math100 said:
Yes, it's true.
Nope. It is not, but it takes some numbers until it is false. What about ##x=41##?
 
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And for the 25=1+24, I think I would write it as 25=24+1 because in this case, p=24 and a^2=1. Thus, 24 is neither a prime nor 1.
 
Math100 said:
And for the 25=1+24, I think I would write it as 25=24+1 because in this case, p=24 and a^2=1. Thus, 24 is neither a prime nor 1.
Yes, and ##p=1## is an option offered by the problem statement, but ##24## isn't a square!
 
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fresh_42 said:
Nope. It is not, but it takes some numbers until it is false. What about ##x=41##?
For x=41, x^2+x+41 is not prime, so the answer is false.
 
  • #10
fresh_42 said:
Yes, and ##p=1## is an option offered by the problem statement, but ##24## isn't a square!
So you're implying that in order to provide a counterexample of x=25, we just need to show that 25=1+24 and explain that 24 isn't a perfect square, that will suffice the whole/complete disproof for this problem?
 
  • #11
Math100 said:
So you're implying that in order to provide a counterexample of x=25, we just need to show that 25=1+24 and explain that 24 isn't a perfect square, that will suffice the whole/complete disproof for this problem?
I'm saying that you have to check all expressions ##p+a^2## whether they equal ##25## or not.
##25=24+1## where ##p=24## and ##a^2=1## is one possibility (##24## is not prime), but the problem said, that ##p=1## is allowed, too, so ##p=1## and ##a^2=24## is another possibility (##24## isn't a perfect square). In any case, ##24+1## isn't an allowed solution.
 
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  • #12
By the way, now that we talk about primes. A prime is a number that, if it divides a product, then it already divides one of the factors. This is the real definition.
$$
p\,|\,a\cdot b \Longrightarrow p\,|\,a \text{ or } p\,|\,b
$$
You can see, that this wouldn't make sense for ##p=1## because ##1## divides everything. This is why ##p=1## isn't considered a prime.
 
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  • #13
fresh_42 said:
I'm saying that you have to check all expressions ##p+a^2## whether they equal ##25## or not.
##25=24+1## where ##p=24## and ##a^2=1## is one possibility (##24## is not prime), but the problem said, that ##p=1## is allowed, too, so ##p=1## and ##a^2=24## is another possibility (##24## isn't a perfect square). In any case, ##24+1## isn't an allowed solution.
So do I still need to write/include all other possibilities like 25=0+25
=21+4
=9+16
=16+9.
I don't think showing these are necessary because 25=1+24 is the perfect counterexample for this problem.
 
  • #14
I'd say it's impossible for squares: If ## p+ a^2= b^2 ##, then ##p =b^2 -a ^2 =(b-a)(b+a) ##, a contradiction, unless ##b-a=1 ##..
 
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  • #15
Math100 said:
Homework Statement:: Give an example to show that the following conjecture is not true: Every positive integer can be written in the form p+a^2, where p is either a prime or 1, and a##\geq##0.
Relevant Equations:: None.

Disproof: Here is a counterexample:
Suppose p+a^2=25, where 25 is a positive integer.
Then we have 25=0+25
=9+16
=16+9
=21+4.
Note that none of 0, 4, 9, and 16 is prime or 1.
Therefore, not every positive integer can be written in the form p+a^2,
where p is either a prime or 1, and a##\geq##0.

Above is my proof/answer for this problem. Can anyone please review/verify if it's correct?
Your working could be clearer. For example, a clear, consistently formatted list (of ways to express 25 in the form ##p + a²##) could be written:
25 + 0²
24 + 1²
21 + 2²
etc.

Also, the question does not explicitly say ##a## is an integer. You may be expected to also cover non-integer values of ##a##.
 
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  • #16
Math100 said:
So do I still need to write/include all other possibilities like 25=0+25
=21+4
=9+16
=16+9.
I don't think showing these are necessary because 25=1+24 is the perfect counterexample for this problem.
No, you have to check all possibilities. The fact that ##25=0+25## isn't a solution doesn't mean that ##25=1+24## couldn't be one. All possibilities must be excluded to get a counterexample for ##25=p+a^2.##
 
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  • #17
fresh_42 said:
No, you have to check all possibilities. The fact that ##25=0+25## isn't a solution doesn't mean that ##25=1+24## couldn't be one. All possibilities must be excluded to get a counterexample for ##25=p+a^2.##
Okay, so I revised the whole disproof:
Suppose p+a^2=25, where 25 is a positive integer.
Then we have 25=0+25=0+5^2
=21+4=21+2^2
=9+16=9+4^2
=16+9=16+3^2
=1+24=1+(sqrt(24))^2
=24+1=24+1^2.
Note that 0, 9, 16 and 21 are not prime numbers or 1.
Also note that 24 is not a perfect square, prime number or 1.
Therefore, not every positive integer can be written in the form p+a^2,
where p is either a prime or 1, and a##\geq##0.
 
  • #18
WWGD said:
I'd say it's impossible for squares: If ## p+ a^2= b^2 ##, then ##p =b^2 -a ^2 =(b-a)(b+a) ##, a contradiction, unless ##b-a=1 ##..
Edit: ##b-a=1## makes ##p=b+a=1+2a## and ##25=p+a^2=a^2+2a+1=(a+1)^2.## Thus ##a=4## and ##25=p+4^2## means ##p=9## which is not prime.

To complete the argument: The above shows that ##p+a^2## isn't a perfect square, if ##p## is prime. That leaves us with the case ##p=1.## This results in ##1=(b-a)(b+a)## which can only be true for ##b=1## and ##a=0.## But ##p+a^2=1+0^2=1\neq 25,## so again no solution.
 
Last edited:
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  • #19
Then we have 25=25+0^2
=24+1^2
=21+2^2
=16+3^2
=9+4^2
=0+5^2.
Note that none of 0, 9, 16, 21, 24 and 25 are prime numbers or 1.
 
  • #20
Math100 said:
Then we have 25=25+0^2
=24+1^2
=21+2^2
=16+3^2
=9+4^2
=0+5^2.
Note that none of 0, 9, 16, 21, 24 and 25 are prime numbers or 1.
That's okay. Note that if we consider any perfect square ##n^2## and look for ##n^2 = p + a^2##, then we have ##p = n^2 - a^2 = (n - a)(n + a)##. If we take ##n> 1##, then that cannot be prime unless ##n-a = 1## and ##n + a## is prime. We need only check the case ##a = n - 1##, and check that ##n + a## is not prime.

Note that ##n + a = 2n - 1##, so any ##n## where ##2n - 1## is not prime will do.

That gives us ##n = 5, 8, 11, 13 \dots## and examples ##25, 64, 121, 169 \dots##.

PS I see @fresh_42 has already posted something like this.
 
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  • #21
Steve4Physics said:
Also, the question does not explicitly say ##a## is an integer. You may be expected to also cover non-integer values of ##a##.
##a## must be an integer. Diophantine equations generally have real solutions. In this case, for any positive integer ##n## and any prime ##p \le n## we have the solution:
$$a = \sqrt{n - p}$$
 
  • #22
PeroK said:
##a## must be an integer. Diophantine equations generally have real solutions. In this case, for any positive integer ##n## and any prime ##p \le n## we have the solution:
$$a = \sqrt{n - p}$$
Yes. IMO the original question is badly written. We are unambiguously told what ##p## is. But all we are told about ##a## is that ##a\geq 0##.

The question, as stated, would allow, for example ##a=\sqrt 2##. (But then the question wouldn't make sense.)

If I were answering, for completeness I would start by saying ##a## is assumed to be an integer. Or maybe I'm being pedantic.
 
  • #23
Steve4Physics said:
If I were answering, for completeness I would start by saying ##a## is assumed to be an integer. Or maybe I'm being pedantic.
The question is patently a Diophantine equation posted by someone who is studying number theory. It's not necessary to exclude real and complex numbers at every turn.
 
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  • #24
Math100 said:
Then we have 25=25+0^2
=24+1^2
=21+2^2
=16+3^2
=9+4^2
=0+5^2.
Note that none of 0, 9, 16, 21, 24 and 25 are prime numbers or 1.
As a challenge, can you find all six numbers less than 100 that fail the conjecture? You have 25 and 64 from the given analysis of square numbers. Can you find the other four?
 
  • #25
PeroK said:
As a challenge, can you find all six numbers less than 100 that fail the conjecture? You have 25 and 64 from the given analysis of square numbers. Can you find the other four?
I only found out that n=1 works besides 25 and 64.
 
  • #26
Math100 said:
I only found out that n=1 works besides 25 and 64.
##n=1=\underbrace{1}_{p}+\underbrace{0^2}_{a^2}## can be written as required.
 
  • #27
Math100 said:
I only found out that n=1 works besides 25 and 64.
Did you try ##34##?
 
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  • #28
PeroK said:
Did you try ##34##?
No.
 
  • #29
Math100 said:
No.
You can use an Excel sheet to check (I think, haven't tried.)
 
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  • #30
Or, write a Python program using a sieve technique. If you're studying number theory in 2022 I suggest the ability to write computer programs is a huge advantage.
 
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  • #31
PeroK said:
Did you try ##34##?
Whether you you try n=34 or some other candidate as a counter example, try to be systematic.

To see if some integer, ##n## is a counterexample, begin with ##a=0## and increment ##a## by ##1## while ##a^2<n##. For each value of ##a##, compute ##p_a## where ##p_a=n=a^2##.
For a given number ##n##, if all ##p_a## are composite (Neither prime, nor 1), then you have found a counter example.

Furthermore, consider using as candidates for ##n##, non-prime numbers of the form ##n=3k+1##. . You should find that using such a number for ##n## will generate a list of values for ##p_a## in which 5 of every 6 entries is divisible by 2 or 3 (or both).
 
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