Can Gravitational and Electromagnetic Forces Defy Conservation of Energy?

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the energy sources of gravitational and electromagnetic forces and whether these forces violate the conservation of energy. Participants explore the nature of these forces, potential energy, and the possibility of energy transfer between interacting objects in these fields.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that gravitational and electromagnetic forces derive their energy from potential energy, suggesting that these forces do not violate conservation of energy.
  • Others question why the energy associated with these forces does not get exhausted, seeking clarification on the nature of energy in this context.
  • A participant expresses uncertainty about the transfer of energy between two interacting objects in gravitational or electromagnetic fields, while another participant asserts that energy can indeed be transferred between objects.
  • One participant argues that charges violate conservation of energy due to continuous photon emission, referencing the Stochastic Electrodynamics (SED) theory, while another counters that this would imply an infinite temperature for the universe.
  • There is a mention of nuclear forces, with participants expressing confusion about their role in energy transfer.
  • A participant discusses the concept of self-energy in classical physics, specifically regarding charges and their potential energy relationships.
  • Another participant expresses uncertainty about whether a particle's charge or gravitational field can influence another's, indicating a lack of clarity on the topic.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the nature of energy in gravitational and electromagnetic forces, with no consensus reached on whether these forces violate conservation of energy or how energy transfer occurs between objects.

Contextual Notes

Some discussions involve assumptions about the nature of energy and forces that may not be universally accepted. The conversation includes references to specific theories, such as SED and classical physics, which may have differing interpretations among participants.

anand
Messages
37
Reaction score
0
What is gravitational forces' and electromagnetic forces' energy source?Don't they violate conservation of energy?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Masses and charges, respectively. No.
 
Could you explain.What I meant was that why doesn't it ever get exausted?
 
Originally posted by anand
Could you explain.What I meant was that why doesn't it ever get exausted?
Because they are forces, not energies. Energy is what is conserved.
 


Originally posted by anand
What is gravitational forces' and electromagnetic forces' energy source?Don't they violate conservation of energy?

The energy source is potential energy.
 
this sounds like a pretty good place to ask this question. I have been wondering for sometime now if energy could be some how transferred between the two interacting objects in a gravitational or electromagnetic field. What I know about the two tells me no but I just wanted to make sure.



P.S. what about the nuclear forces?
 
Last edited:
I didn't understand the previous question, but I think that charges do violate COE. I think this because they continually emitt photons and I subsribe to the SED theory were these photon's energy source is the vacuum's virtual pariticle flux. And please, I don't want to here any more about how that can't be, that the virtual particle flux is statistical and so averages to zero over time. That is CED nonsense, and this is on the forefront of quantum mechanics, because SED explains why the equations work, instead of just giving them.
 
Obviously charges do not continuously emit photons. If they did, the entire universe would have an essentially infinite temperature.

Please, if you want to talk nonsense, don't do it here -- do it in the correct forum.

- Warren
 
Originally posted by bdkeenan00
this sounds like a pretty good place to ask this question. I have been wondering for sometime now if energy could be some how transferred between the two interacting objects in a gravitational or electromagnetic field. What I know about the two tells me no but I just wanted to make sure.



P.S. what about the nuclear forces?
I'm not sure I understand it either but objects can most certainly transfer energy between them.
 
  • #10
Classically, charges have an infinite self-energy. Two electrons have a potential energy -ke2/r. Quarks' colors have a constant, rather than inverse square distance force relation.
 
  • #11
Originally posted by russ_watters
I'm not sure I understand it either but objects can most certainly transfer energy between them.

Thank you:smile: I apparently wasn't clear enough on my question. Okay what I asked is if you have say two charges(or two masses) there would be an electromagnetic force between the charges and a gravitational force between the two masses. I realize that each charge or mass would have a potenial energy because of its position in the gravitational(or in the case of the charges ,electromagnetic)field, and that this energy can be converted into kinetic(like when a ball falls it's stored potential energy is converted into kinetic energy as it accelerates downwards). So is there anyway in which the energy of one charge(or mass) can be transferred to the other( the two objects not being in physical contact of course)?

If you have already answered this question I am sorry for asking it again. I just wanted to make sure.
 
Last edited:
  • #12
Originally posted by russ_watters
I'm not sure I understand it either but objects can most certainly transfer energy between them.

Thank you:smile:
 
  • #13
Still not sure, but it sounds like you are asking if a particles charge or gravitational field (warping of space) can change another's. Don't think so, but this is getting out of my depth.
 

Similar threads

Graduate What researchers think of the Coriolis force
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
598
Undergrad What can we scientifically measure directly?
  • · Replies 27 ·
Replies
27
Views
4K
High School Difference between Gravitational Force and Gravity?
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
Graduate Could the Laws of Physics Be Proportional to Entropy?
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
821
Undergrad Gravitational analog of electromagnetic force
  • · Replies 20 ·
Replies
20
Views
6K
How can the force of a normal reaction be electromagnetic?
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
3K
Undergrad Is this analogy between Magnetic Force and Gravitational Force accurate in helping to understand what contributes more to a stronger magnetic force?
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
2K
Undergrad Is gravitational prospecting pseudoscience?
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
Is potential energy defined only for internal conservative forces?
  • · Replies 15 ·
Replies
15
Views
2K
Undergrad Sun gravitational lensing forces
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
2K