Can People Sense the Future?

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Dr. John Hartwell's mid-1970s experiments at the University of Utrecht suggested that individuals could sense future events, as evidenced by brainwave reactions occurring before provocative images were displayed. Dean Radin later replicated these findings using skin resistance measurements, observing similar anticipatory responses. Despite the intriguing nature of these results, skepticism remains regarding their validity, with some suggesting that reactions may stem from prior exposure or conditioning rather than genuine precognition. The discussion highlights the lack of published results from these studies, leading to speculation about potential ridicule or suppression of findings. Participants express interest in further research and the implications of subconscious anticipation, while others question the reliability of the methodologies used. Overall, the conversation reflects a blend of curiosity and skepticism about the possibility of precognition and the nature of time perception.
  • #51
RoboSapien said:
I really don't quite agree with U nor will those involved in Artificial Neural Networks Intelligence. All that is there underneath is just a bunch of Strengths of connects. The same thing responsible when U start to masturbate without planing for it, U just start doing as U r commanded by your neural chemistry, U r nothing but a biochemical propogation.

Im afraid that "consciousness is produced by the brain(or even subconsciousness)" is an unproven assumption. (take a look in the NDE and OBE thread: https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=69211 )

And i don't think anyone specialised in artificial neural networks has a clue how matter can become conscious, or develop a subconsciousness.
 
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  • #52
WyldFyr said:
Agreed, but our "subconscious" is an extremely organized neural network with millions of discrete componets and nodes. So its not as simple as just chemistry. There is definately some complex behavior going on, involving lots of different inputs.
I think our subconscious does inform our conscious mind to the degree that our conscious mind is just the software running on ontop of the subconscious, like the iceberg example. Might be better to describe it with an aplication-program-to-operating-system analogy.

Just a note: Subsconscious is atemporal and does not experience time...
 
  • #53
Burnsys said:
Just a note: Subsconscious is atemporal and does not experience time...

Is that an experimental or philosophical statement? It's not obvious to me why it wouldn't.
 
  • #54


yeah it's the "why do I wait for ages and 3 buses turn up at once?!? that always happens", syndrome, people forget the number of times they've turned up to see a bus pull round the corner, or the number of times a single bus has turned up, because there is no emotional context, just as when you have a hunch that's proved correct the emotional wonder makes you remember.

Buses run on strict timetables, that are often affected by traffic causing busses to run out of synch with the timetable and so sometimes they turn up in 3's or 4's, but to say that it is a frequent event is forgetting past history.

A little while after writting the last post, I was walking through the hospital where I work and my attention was imediately brought to a round O2 cylinder on a flat table, in my minds eye I saw it roll off the table and crash to the ground: this didn't happen and on closer inspection I saw that the table had small metal bits at the corner which would prevent this from happening, it didn't stop my subconscious from alerting me to possible danger though: why do I still remember it, because I remembered writing this post, otherwise I'll wager I would have quite easily forgotten it. :smile:
 
  • #55
In response to where does the conciousness/subconcioussness come from, well that's a real scientific issue, it has a name all of it's own called 'the hard problem' anthropologists neurologists psychologist have been working to answer this since the beginning of recorded history and the advent of philosophy and no one is really any the wiser, until we understand any corellation between cocnious thought and brain chemistry, if indeed we ever can little progress can be made without some tangible evidence, or a good testable theory.

it's all very well describing how it happens but why does it happen and where's your evidence.

I've posted this example before but a control group of non depressed and another group of clinically depressed patience were started on SSRI's (Selective Seratonin Reuptake Inhibtors; prozac,lustral etc) - a short time after the pills were taken, enough time for the drug to be fully absorbed into the body and to have an effect on the brain - the brain activity of one group and the other were analysed, as were certain brain chemistry indicators, seratonin levels dopamine levels etc. they were found to be identicle in almost every respect; why then do SSRI's take 3-5 weeks to have any noticible effect on mood?

Answer that and you've made progress in the great mystery of the conciousness/subconciousness.

'the hard problem' is the holy grail of many sciences including neuropsychology, Neuropharmacology amongst others and philosphers and thelogians alike.
:confused:
 
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  • #56
I've thought about it a bit more and it seems to me that the subconscious must store temporal information. Otherwise, how could I answer somebody who asked me how long I had been doing something if I hadn't specifically thought about time in the process of doing it? We must have some clock that runs separately from our conscious mind. But what are its properties?

This must have been studied in real experiments at some point, so if anybody has any links, they would be much appreciated. However, let me pose the following thought experiment. Let's say I'm put in a room with two light bulbs. While I'm sitting in the room, the light bulbs will both go on at some undetermined times. The question I will be asked after the experiment is done is, "After the first bulb went on, how long was it until the second one went on?" The experimenter gives me some sort of menial task to perform while I'm sitting in the room so that I'm unable to consciously count intervals of time.

Now I'd be curious of the actual results of such an experiment, but let's see if I can approximate the results from my everyday experience. First, what's the shortest time interval between which I can possibly give an accurate answer? That must be the integration time of our eyes, which is about a 30th of a second. Any less and I won't be able to distinguish the events. But is my brain good at distinguishing between a 30th of a second and a 10th of a second? If done in succession, I suspect the answer might be yes, but if you're just asked the length of time of the interval without any other information, it's not clear that most people could give an accurate answer. Can we distinguish between a 10th of a second and a second? I would say almost certainly, so our mind must have temporal resolution of at least a fraction of a second.

Unfortunately, this raises many other questions. Is memory of vision the primary means by which we store temporal information? Would a blind person be as accurate as a seeing person? Would we be as accurate if we were given auditory signals instead...with eyes open or shut? Do we use the outside world as our clock or is there an internal one? Our senses are our only links to the outside world, so if the answer is the former, then temporal information must be linked to our senses. I suspect that outside information must play a role, otherwise it would be a strange coincidence that the time intervals we can distinguish visually are comparable with those we can distinguish mentally.

What about long periods of time? If they waited a minute, an hour, or a day to turn on the lights, how would my accuracy change? It's hard for me to distinguish 59 seconds from 60 seconds, yet I can easily distinguish 1 from 2. The same would apply to hours or days. This implies that my temporal memory decays logarithmically. Is that because of an inaccuracy in my clock or a loss of information about the original event? Our memory clearly decays with time, so the latter must play a role.

The more I think about it, the more questions I get. I'd be very curious to see what a psychology expert has to say about these things.
 
  • #57
Well, I had a cool post, but then the cat walked on the keyboard *grin*
I think it went something like this:
I think we all agree that the problem with discussing sensing the future is two fold;
One: We don't have a clear answer as to the relationship of perception and consciousness. We don't have a clear answer what makes perception what it is. We don't even know what makes conscious work exactly. Two: We need those answers to ask the question (and get the answer) of whether precognition really exits.
I believe, and I think some others here are behind me on this, that awarness is created by physical phenomenon that we have observed elsewhere in the real world. So I think the real question is: Is there real, verified phenomenon (flame me if I'm not using that word correctly) that has two or more events that appear unable to influence each other (causually disconnected), but really are influenced by each other?
Personally, as an example of what I'm alluding to, I was thinking of a life game setup where the formation appears to jump ahead. I think it is completely possible that this future sensing could really be happening, and not just an artifact of our process of perception.
 
  • #58
Perceptions

Great Thread! Has anyone ever heard of this guy Kim Clement? I saw him in person, and although he played the piano a lot before demonstrating, once he began to share his spiritual perceptions, it was incredible. He has been used in several cases of successfully resolving whereabouts of kidnapped children. Any thoughts? www.kimclement.com

theopenbook
 
  • #59
theopenbook said:
Great Thread! Has anyone ever heard of this guy Kim Clement? I saw him in person, and although he played the piano a lot before demonstrating, once he began to share his spiritual perceptions, it was incredible. He has been used in several cases of successfully resolving whereabouts of kidnapped children. Any thoughts? www.kimclement.com

theopenbook

How many cases do you think he sent in suggestions for? How many TIMES per case? No friggin kidding if you saw "near a river... or... a field..." you're probably going to be close.

Fact is: Any time there's a popular missing person's case the police get bombarded with 'psychic help': and there's no rhyme or rhythm to what they say! And yet if one of them is even CLOSE they yell it to the world! Wow! You and a hundred other people took random guesses and YOU got the close one! AMAZING!

And let's not forget the fact that the information is useless sent a long with a "Please don't release this if the information is wrong" :rolleyes:
 
  • #60
Alkatran said:
How many cases do you think he sent in suggestions for? How many TIMES per case? No friggin kidding if you saw "near a river... or... a field..." you're probably going to be close.

Fact is: Any time there's a popular missing person's case the police get bombarded with 'psychic help': and there's no rhyme or rhythm to what they say! And yet if one of them is even CLOSE they yell it to the world! Wow! You and a hundred other people took random guesses and YOU got the close one! AMAZING!

And let's not forget the fact that the information is useless sent a long with a "Please don't release this if the information is wrong" :rolleyes:

Could be I suppose. In the concert I saw him get some people's names, number of children, birthdays and etc while in front of the crowd. Like Jonathan Edwards, mingling with the crowd, he would walk out and pull people out if he felt he had a prediction for them.

Have you ever seen someone like this with the real "gift", as some would call it?

theopenbook
 
  • #61
Some of them use cold-reading.

However, resolving the whereabouts of a missing person by guessing or using vague discriptions would still have a pretty low chance of succes. After all, vague descriptions are useless to police and cold-reading is not possible in these cases, since no one knows where the missing person is. By pure chance, the odds would be low.




I found an article about a 'sensing the future experiment' where they show different pictures to the subjects:

http://www.scientificexploration.org/jse/abstracts/v14n3a4.php

PDF http://www.scientificexploration.org/jse/articles/pdf/14.3_jahn_etal.pdf


An experiment addressing anomalous human/machine interactions utilizing a feedback display of two competing pictures, the relative dominance of which is controlled by a microelectronic random generator, has yielded a number of equivocal results. On the one hand, an ingoing hypothesis that such a visually engaging mode of feedback might facilitate larger anomalous effects has not been supported by the composite results of 49 operators performing some 390,000 experimental trials. Likewise, a smaller ad hoc study of the relative efficacy of a subset of target pictures having religious or spiritual themes, although yielding effect sizes comparable with earlier random event generator (REG) data, has insufficient statistical power to resolve the question. Also, an attempt to assess the relative importance of the pictorial feedback, vis-à-vis the output of the REG, per se, in facilitating operator performance has not been definitive. Yet, certain secondary anomalies in these databases, such as gender disparities, individual operator performances, and serial position effects, show several characteristics akin to those previously found in other human/machine experiments in this laboratory. Whether these indicators can be used to develop more effective experiments of this class or to achieve a more fundamental understanding of the basic phenomena is the focus of ongoing research.

Seems like there are some mixed results.
 
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  • #62
Was discovery of body a coincidence or psychic phenomena?

a related story in the news:

Residents wonder whether it was a mere coincidence or an eerie phenomena that a missing man's body bobbed up in a lake just as a psychic drew near.

A self-described "psychic detective" contacted by the man's family found the body in the lake after she says a feeling pulled her there. On March 19, Lynn Ann Maker made her discovery as she waded into the lake. [continued]
http://www.accessnorthga.com/news/ap_newfullstory.asp?ID=58756
 
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  • #63
Heres another one where a psychic helps find a diamond ring:

12:00 - 05 April 2005
A consultation with a Devon psychic led to a heavily pregnant woman digging up the floorboards of her home to discover a lost ring.

Anita Pancherz, from Tiverton, consulted psychic Carol Everett, from Crediton, in a last-ditch bid to find her gold and diamond ring.

http://www.thisisexeter.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=137199&command=displayContent&sourceNode=136986&contentPK=12166093
 
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  • #64
Heres an excellent flash animation that gives a short indroduction and shows the actual results of experiments done:

http://www.lfr.org/LFR/csl/SlideShows/PrestimulusResponse/index.html

There is definitely evidence that this 'sensing the future' occurs, for whatever reason that may be.

Source: http://www.lfr.org/LFR/csl/
 
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  • #65
Ivan Seeking said:
a related story in the news:
http://www.accessnorthga.com/news/ap_newfullstory.asp?ID=58756
This is pretty interesting, but if you read the story it is clear that her success is due to having made a more thorough investigation of the scene of the abandoned car than the police did. She didn't check the lake out of the blue: his car was found abandoned nearby. She's not psychic, just dedicated.
 
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  • #66
PIT2 said:
Heres another one where a psychic helps find a diamond ring:http://www.thisisexeter.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=137199&command=displayContent&sourceNode=136986&contentPK=12166093
Read this one. I find there is an obvious clue about how the psychic knew where to look. Anyone else see it?
 
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  • #67
zoobyshoe said:
Read this one. I find there is an obvious clue about how the psychic knew where to look. Anyone else see it?

It wouldn't be this bit would it?

Mrs Panchurz said: " I had just got the nursery freshly decorated for the new baby. The carpet had been freshly laid down and all the furniture was in, but we decided to rip the carpet up and lever a floorboard and there it was.

:smile:
 
  • #68
PIT2 said:
It wouldn't be this bit would it?



:smile:

Nope. Her son said it went away with the dustmen.
 
  • #69
Alkatran said:
Nope. Her son said it went away with the dustmen.

Well what does the dustman have to do with it being under the floorboards.
I assume 'dustman' means the person that collects the garbage, or is this some fantasy figure that collects dust from the floor?
 
  • #70
PIT2 said:
Well what does the dustman have to do with it being under the floorboards.
I assume 'dustman' means the person that collects the garbage, or is this some fantasy figure that collects dust from the floor?
Not "dustman" but plural: "dustmen."

The question is not what a dustman is, but what might a three year old refer to as "the dustmen."?
 
  • #71
"I went to Carol when my three-year old son, Joe, started winding me up and saying that the ring had gone away with the dustmen."
 
  • #72
"I went to Carol when my three-year old son, Joe, started winding me up and saying that the ring had gone away with the dustmen."

No, epiphanies yet, PIT2?

We have a missing ring. A three-year-old boy pesters his mother with the statement that the ring "had gone away with the dustmen."

Three-year-old kids are not very articulate. Sometimes they make up names for things. Sometimes they anthropomorphize things.

There are other important things to remember about three-year-old kids, things the psychic probably had firmly in mind when giving her suggestion.
 
  • #73
zoobyshoe said:
"I went to Carol when my three-year old son, Joe, started winding me up and saying that the ring had gone away with the dustmen."

No, epiphanies yet, PIT2?

We have a missing ring. A three-year-old boy pesters his mother with the statement that the ring "had gone away with the dustmen."

Three-year-old kids are not very articulate. Sometimes they make up names for things. Sometimes they anthropomorphize things.

There are other important things to remember about three-year-old kids, things the psychic probably had firmly in mind when giving her suggestion.

Well I am not English or American, so i assumed 'dustmen' was just the people that pick up the garbage outside of the house. So perhaps that's why i missed the connection.

Also, i still think this bit is a bigger clue:

Mrs Panchurz said: " I had just got the nursery freshly decorated for the new baby. The carpet had been freshly laid down and all the furniture was in, but we decided to rip the carpet up and lever a floorboard and there it was.

A psychic discovering that the room had recently been renovated, would probably suspect the ring was lost somewhere during the renovation. Hell, even i would suspect this, and I am no psychic. "A new carpet? Ring could be underneath it!"
 
  • #74
PIT2 said:
A psychic discovering that the room had recently been renovated, would probably suspect the ring was lost somewhere during the renovation.
The timetable is pretty clearly laid out in the article. The ring had been missing 7 months. The room had only just ben renovated. It is clear the renovation was not the occasion of the loss of the ring.

Aren't you curious as to how the ring got under the floorboard? And how did it get under there a full 7 months before the renovation? Makes you wonder why the renovation happened in the first place, doesn't it? How could a ring get under a floorboard? What is an obvious good reason to renovate a floor?
 
  • #75
zoobyshoe said:
Aren't you curious as to how the ring got under the floorboard? And how did it get under there a full 7 months before the renovation? Makes you wonder why the renovation happened in the first place, doesn't it? How could a ring get under a floorboard? What is an obvious good reason to renovate a floor?

Perhaps there was a crack in the floor and this is why they renovated it?

This is a good reason why the psychic would suspect the ring was in the renovated room, moved out of sight completely under the freshly laid carpet, like i said.

Just imagine the thoughts of the psychic:

"Hey... this room is renovated, i wonder why? Why is there a new carpet? Is there something wrong with the floor? Wait, ill just ask her: were there cracks in the floor?"
 
  • #76
PIT2 said:
Perhaps there was a crack in the floor and this is why they renovated it?
Yes! A crack in the floor is the most obvious explanation for how the ring got under the floorboards. The location of the ring, though, is only something everyone is sure about now that it's been found.
This is a good reason why the psychic would suspect the ring was in the renovated room, moved out of sight completely under the freshly laid carpet, like i said.
Er...atually what you said was:
PIT2 said:
A psychic discovering that the room had recently been renovated, would probably suspect the ring was lost somewhere during the renovation.
and I had to point out the ring was lost months before the renovation.
"Hey... this room is renovated, i wonder why? Why is there a new carpet? Is there something wrong with the floor? Wait, ill just ask her: were there cracks in the floor?"
Yes, but she'd do it much more subtly. She won't look psychic if she comes out and says "Did you look into the cracks?

By the way, do you now realize who had looked into the cracks, and seen the ring? The person whose misunderstood testimony gave her the confidence to suggest tearing up a newly laid carpet?
 
  • #77
zoobyshoe said:
Er...atually what you said was:

With which i meant, when the carpet went over the floor, (and perhaps the floorboard were even exchanged for ones that didnt have cracks in them), the ring was lost from sight completely. Or that perhaps the ring was even laying on the ground, and only got underneath the floorboards, when they were being renovated or when they were fiddling around with the carpet.

Who knows what happened during this renovation, they might have dropped a TV unto the floor, cracking it completely open and making the ring (laying on the back of the TV) slip into the crack :wink:

and I had to point out the ring was lost months before the renovation.

The date of the renovation is not mentioned :smile:

By the way, do you now realize who had looked into the cracks, and seen the ring? The person whose misunderstood testimony gave her the confidence to suggest tearing up a newly laid carpet?

I guess ur talking about the kid. However, the kids vague testimoney alone would not be sufficient to determine the room the ring would be in.

Also, if the sole role of the kid was to give confidence to the psychic (which confirmed her suspicions based on the renovation-data she received without the use of the kid), then the renovation-data clearly plays a larger role.

In fact, the kids testimony could well be redundant, the renovation-data could not:

-Dust is all around the house (and even outside). Dustmen could be anywhere.
-The renovation was only in the room where the ring was.
 
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