Can Saturn Keep Its Ring System If It Moves Close to the Sun?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the hypothetical scenario of Saturn being moved closer to the Sun and its potential ability to maintain its ring system. Participants explore the implications of temperature and gravitational forces on the rings, considering both theoretical and mathematical perspectives.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that Saturn would likely lose its ring system if moved very close to the Sun due to high temperatures vaporizing the ice in the rings.
  • Others argue that the Sun's gravitational pull could disrupt the rings if Saturn were to get too close.
  • One participant suggests that if Saturn were placed at Mercury's orbit, it might retain its rocky components of the rings, but proximity to the Sun would still pose risks.
  • A mathematical approach is presented to estimate the distance at which the gravitational forces of the Sun and Saturn would equalize, potentially leading to ring disruption.
  • Some participants speculate that Saturn would lose its moon system before losing its rings if it migrated inward, as the gravitational influence of the Sun increases.
  • A later reply introduces the concept of the Hill Sphere, suggesting it could provide insight into the maximum distance at which a satellite can orbit a planet without being affected by the Sun's gravity.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the effects of temperature and gravitational forces on Saturn's rings if it were to move closer to the Sun. The discussion remains unresolved, with no consensus reached on the outcomes of such a scenario.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference specific mathematical models and concepts, such as gravitational force equations and the Hill Sphere, but do not resolve the assumptions or limitations inherent in their calculations.

natski
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Dear all,

Can only the outter planet form rings? If Saturn were moved very close to the Sun, would it be able to maintain its ring system? I personally don't think so due to the fact the high tmperatures would vaporise a lot of the ice in the ring system but I would like to everyone else's viewpoint...

Natski
 
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natski said:
Dear all,

Can only the outter planet form rings? If Saturn were moved very close to the Sun, would it be able to maintain its ring system? I personally don't think so due to the fact the high tmperatures would vaporise a lot of the ice in the ring system but I would like to everyone else's viewpoint...

Natski

Also, the Sun's gravitational pull might ruin it too if it gets too close.
 
If you moved Saturn to say, Mercury's orbit, yes it would probably keep it's rings, the rocky stuff anyway. However, I think if you move it really, really close to the sun then the sun's gravity is going to start disturbing the rings.

The reason you only see the outer planets with rings is because they are so massive they pull lots of stuff into orbit around them. I believe the popular theory speculate that moons move into close the planet and break apart forming the rings.
 
So one would perhaps estimate that when the gravitational force of the Sun is equal to the gravitational force of the planet, for the position of the rings, the rings will be disrupted...

GM*/a^2 = GMp/r^2
a = SQRT[ (M*/Mp) r^2 ]

where r is radius of rings and a is semi-major axis of orbit...

If r = 6.839E7 m (about half of Saturn's ring's radius)
and M*/Mj=1047.5

=> a = 0.015 AU roughly

Natski
 
Presumeably then, if Saturn did somehow migrate inwards, it would lose its moon system before it lost its ring system...?
 
natski said:
Presumeably then, if Saturn did somehow migrate inwards, it would lose its moon system before it lost its ring system...?

Yes, as planets move inward, the ratio of the gravity from the sun to the planet increases, so either they get off course, or they orbit farther out.
 
natski said:
So one would perhaps estimate that when the gravitational force of the Sun is equal to the gravitational force of the planet, for the position of the rings, the rings will be disrupted...

GM*/a^2 = GMp/r^2
a = SQRT[ (M*/Mp) r^2 ]

where r is radius of rings and a is semi-major axis of orbit...

If r = 6.839E7 m (about half of Saturn's ring's radius)
and M*/Mj=1047.5

=> a = 0.015 AU roughly

Natski

What you want to use here is the Hill Sphere. This gives the maximum radius at which a satellite can orbit a palnet without being torn away from by the Sun. (If you apply your method to the Earth-Moon system you would determine that the Moon can't orbit he Earth at the distance that it does.)

The radius of the Hill sphere can be found by:

\frac{r^3}{a^3}= \frac{m}{3M}

Solving for a for an r of 6.839e7 we get about 0.01 AU.
 

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