Can the Eurozone Survive the Economic Challenges of Greece and Italy?

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  • Thread starter Thread starter Ivan Seeking
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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the economic challenges facing Greece and Italy within the Eurozone, particularly in light of Greece's potential default or exit from the Euro. Participants explore the implications of these scenarios on global markets, the Eurozone economy, and the United States, touching on various economic theories and market reactions.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express concern about the contagion effect on global markets due to Greece's economic instability, comparing it to the 2008 financial crisis.
  • There is a technical question raised about the implications of Greece potentially defaulting or leaving the Euro, with discussions on the feasibility and consequences of such actions.
  • Some participants argue that the U.S. manufacturing base may suffer due to a stronger dollar, while others suggest that U.S. exports remain strong despite price increases.
  • Several participants discuss the scale of the Greek economy in relation to the Eurozone, noting its relatively small GDP compared to the overall European Union economy.
  • There are differing views on the U.S. financial involvement in the Greek bailout, with some questioning the rationale behind U.S. contributions and others clarifying the nature of the IMF's role.
  • Concerns are raised about the long-term implications of the bailout structure, particularly regarding the rates at which Germany lends to Greece compared to its own borrowing rates.
  • Some participants highlight the political responsibility of the Greek population in addressing their economic situation, suggesting that elections may influence future actions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views on the economic implications of Greece's situation, the role of the U.S. in the bailout, and the potential outcomes of Greece's financial decisions. The discussion remains unresolved with no clear consensus on the best course of action or the likely consequences.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include varying assumptions about the economic models discussed, differing interpretations of the bailout's structure, and the potential for market volatility based on speculative trading behaviors.

  • #151
Borg said:
Nikkei is up over 2% at the open. U.S. futures are still about even but that should change by morning.
The Nikkei could also be responding to the Japanese government allowing the restart to two nuclear reactors at Ohi.

WorldNuclearNews said:
Ohi mayor Shinobu Tokioka has announced his approval of the restart of Ohi 3 and 4, citing safety assessments carried out on behalf of Fukui Prefecture and also a public appeal by Japanese prime minister Yoshihiko Noda for the resumption of nuclear power.
However, "Prefectural governor Issei Nishikawa has said he will base his final decision on the restart on the will of the people of Ohi town and the prefectural assembly."
 
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  • #152
Astronuc said:
The Nikkei could also be responding to the Japanese government allowing the restart to two nuclear reactors at Ohi.

However, "Prefectural governor Issei Nishikawa has said he will base his final decision on the restart on the will of the people of Ohi town and the prefectural assembly."
That's good. I haven't been keeping current with Japanese market forces and I wasn't looking forward to an inflated 10% gain that some analysts were calling for today. Japan closed with a good gain, Europe has reasonable gains this morning and the U.S. futures are still flat. Yeah, sanity!
 
  • #153
Euro, Global Shares Jump in Relief Rally After Greek Vote
http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2012/06/17/business/17reuters-markets-global.html
SINGAPORE (Reuters) - The euro jumped to a one-month high and Asian shares rose nearly 2 percent on Monday after Greece's election delivered a slim parliamentary majority to pro-bailout parties, a result seen as crucial to European leaders' efforts to hold the euro together.

U.S. stock index futures and riskier commodities such as crude oil and copper also rose, while gold fell after a rally last week, when investors had looked to bullion as a safe haven amid fears the election could trigger financial turmoil.
. . . .
It remains to be seen how long-lived this mini rally becomes.

As the articles indicates, there are more hurdles or perhaps pitfalls ahead.
 
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  • #154
Astronuc said:
I remember quite a few folks expressing misgivings about the Euro precisely for the reasons that the EU or Eurozone is now in trouble. Quite a few expressed concerns about the lack of fiscal discipline in some economies.
...
Perhaps most famously:

Milton Friedman said:
... I think within the next 10 to 15 years the eurozone will split apart. The British government, on balance, should stay out of it."
 
  • #155
Europe's Tower of Babel hampers euro solution
http://news.yahoo.com/europes-tower-babel-hampers-euro-solution-055244786--business.html

Germany, France, Italy and Spain, the euro area's four biggest economies, are wrestling over proposals for a banking union, joint euro zone bonds and handing (surrendering?) more control over national budgets and economic policy to the European Union. However, the EU faces conflicts between and among its member states, and separate, often fierce, national debates within each state, each of which has the power to block any change to EU treaties, including 10 countries which are not members of the currency.

Can such a diverse group of nations/states pull it together - and avoid further deterioration of individual and aggregate economies?
 
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  • #156
Astronuc said:
...

Can such a diverse group of nations/states pull it together - and avoid further deterioration of individual and aggregate economies?
I think no, at least not under the current structure of the EU government and constitution, which is far too involved in micromanagement. Only a sparse, highly restricted and limited federal government has a chance, one that leaves most of the power with the individual states such as the police power, would have constitutional check on spending, etc.
 

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