Can this type of transformation be non-linear?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the nature of transformations in the context of the Lorentz transformation, specifically questioning whether such transformations can be non-linear. Participants explore the implications of straight lines being transformed into straight lines across different coordinate systems, and the mathematical structure of such transformations.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a derivation of the Lorentz transformation that assumes linearity but questions whether this assumption is necessary or if non-linear transformations could also apply.
  • Another participant clarifies that the transformation presented is linear by construction and suggests that non-linear transformations would require the inclusion of non-linear terms.
  • Several participants emphasize the premise that all straight lines in one coordinate system must transform into straight lines in another, raising questions about the implications for the form of the transformation.
  • There is a reiteration of the need to establish that a transformation must preserve the linearity of straight lines, with references to mathematical conditions that would need to be satisfied.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on whether the transformation must be linear or if non-linear forms could be valid. There is no consensus on the necessity of linearity in the transformation.

Contextual Notes

Participants discuss the implications of their assumptions regarding straight lines and the mathematical structure of transformations, but these assumptions remain unresolved and depend on further clarification of definitions and conditions.

snoopies622
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I've finally worked out a derivation of the Lorentz transformation that doesn't use the now out of favor i^2=-1, but it still has one weak spot: it assumes that the transformation is linear. It seems quite reasonable to me that it would be linear since it has to graph straight lines on to straight lines (since the laws of mechanics should be the same in both reference frames) but how can I go from that fact to

x' = Ax + Bt
t' = Dx + Et

where A,B,D and E are constants without any doubt? Is it mathematically possible for a transformation that requires any straight line in one coordinate system to become a straight line in the other coordinate system to assume some other, non-linear form?
 
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The transformation you wrote is linear by construction: ##\begin{bmatrix}x'\\t' \end{bmatrix}=\begin{bmatrix}A&B\\ D&E \end{bmatrix}\cdot \begin{bmatrix}x\\t \end{bmatrix}##. To get something non-linear you will have to use non-linear terms.

Are you talking about one straight line or all straight lines? You could add a constant term, so it still transforms lines into lines, but isn't linear anymore, however, affine linear.
 
I start with the premise that all straight lines in (x,t) are transformed into straight lines into (x',t') and vice versa and that (0,0) in one coordinate system is (0,0) in the other. Does it then follow that the transformation must look like

x' = Ax + Bt
t' = Dx + Et

where A,B, D, E are constants, and how do I know this for certain? Thanks.
 
snoopies622 said:
I start with the premise that all straight lines in (x,t) are transformed into straight lines into (x',t') and vice versa and that (0,0) in one coordinate system is (0,0) in the other. Does it then follow that the transformation must look like

x' = Ax + Bt
t' = Dx + Et

where A,B, D, E are constants, and how do I know this for certain? Thanks.
You want to show, that for a given transformation ##f## it has to hold: ##f##(straight)=straight which means ##f(\lambda \vec{a}+\mu \vec{b})= \lambda f(\vec{a})+\mu f(\vec{b})## for all ##\vec{a},\vec{b},\lambda,\mu\,.##
 

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