Can Turing Machine Decidability Extend to Complex Algorithm Outputs?

  • Context: MHB 
  • Thread starter Thread starter mathmari
  • Start date Start date
Click For Summary
SUMMARY

The discussion centers on the decidability of specific questions related to Turing machines and algorithms, particularly using Rice's theorem. It is established that it is decidable whether a deterministic Turing machine halts within the first 1000 steps for any input less than or equal to 1000. The participants explore the conditions under which Rice's theorem applies, specifically regarding the existence of functions that yield both palindrome and non-palindrome outputs. The conversation emphasizes the need for precise definitions and formulations when discussing algorithm outputs and halting conditions.

PREREQUISITES
  • Understanding of Turing machines and their operational mechanics
  • Familiarity with Rice's theorem and its implications in computability theory
  • Knowledge of algorithmic output types, specifically palindromes
  • Proficiency in formal mathematical notation and pseudocode
NEXT STEPS
  • Study the formal statement and applications of Rice's theorem in depth
  • Learn about Turing machine simulation techniques and their limitations
  • Research the properties of palindromic strings and their recognition by algorithms
  • Examine the implications of decidability in computational theory and algorithm design
USEFUL FOR

The discussion is beneficial for computer scientists, theoretical computer scientists, and students studying computability and algorithm design, particularly those interested in Turing machines and decidability issues.

mathmari
Gold Member
MHB
Messages
4,984
Reaction score
7
Hey! :o

Are the following questions decidable? Give an appropriate algorithm or show that the problem is undecidable using Rice's theorem.
  1. Does an arbitrary Turing machine halt with all inputs less than or equal to 1000 within the first 1000 steps?
  2. Does an arbitrary algorithm with the appropriate input give a number, that interpreted as a string, it is palindrome?
  3. Does an arbitrary algorithm, that does not halt for at least one input, give any natural number as an output value?
I have done the following:

  1. It is decidable whether a deterministic Turing halts within the first $ 1000 $ steps for any input less than or equal to $ 1000 $.

    We execute the Turing machine sequentially on all words $ w \in \Sigma^{\star} $ with $ w \leq 1000 $ for a maximum of $ 1000 $ steps.

    If we have simulated at most $ 1000 $ steps, we hold and the output is "yes", otherwise we stop as soon as we have simulated the Turing machine on all words $ w $ and the output is "no".

    Is this correct?
  2. To use Rice's theorem do we have to find a function that has a palindrome output and one that has not a palindrome output, to get a non-trivial property?
  3. Let $\phi$ be the function that is computed by an algorithm. We consider the set $M=\{i\in \mathbb{N}_0\mid \text{ For all } n\in \mathbb{N}_0 \ \phi_i(n) \text{ is defined }\}$, or not?

    Let $i,j \in \mathbb{N}_0$ with $\phi_i = n$ for some natural number $n\in \mathbb{N}$ and $\phi_j\neq m\in \mathbb{N}$ (since the machine does not halt for at least one input).

    Then $i \in M$ and $j \notin M$, so $M\neq \emptyset$ and $M\neq \mathbb{N}_0$, and now we acan apply Rice's theorem.

    Is that correct?

(Wondering)
 
Physics news on Phys.org
mathmari said:
It is decidable whether a deterministic Turing halts within the first $ 1000 $ steps for any input less than or equal to $ 1000 $.

We execute the Turing machine sequentially on all words $ w \in \Sigma^{\star} $ with $ w \leq 1000 $ for a maximum of $ 1000 $ steps.
Strictly speaking, it is not clear how to compare a word $w$ and the number 1000, and what the alphabet $\Sigma$ is in this case.

mathmari said:
If we have simulated at most $ 1000 $ steps, we hold
"Halt", not "hold". Can we halt after 5 steps because 5 is less than 1000?

mathmari said:
and the output is "yes"
After running the machine on a single word?

In general I agree with this answer, but it should be written more precisely, possibly using pseudocode.

mathmari said:
Does an arbitrary algorithm with the appropriate input give a number, that interpreted as a string, it is palindrome?
Please write the version of Rice's theorem you are using. Sometimes, for example in te Sipser's textbook, it is formulated for machines that only accept or reject their input but otherwise produce no output.

mathmari said:
Does an arbitrary algorithm, that does not halt for at least one input, give any natural number as an output value?
What else can a machine give as an output value? I am not sure I understand the property of algorithms that has to be recognized. Could you write it more precisely, preferably using a formula?

mathmari said:
Let $\phi$ be the function that is computed by an algorithm.
This sound like "Let $y$ be the square of a number". Which number?
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 16 ·
Replies
16
Views
3K
  • · Replies 15 ·
Replies
15
Views
7K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
1K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
Replies
29
Views
5K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
8K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K