Cancelled TIA project is on-going.

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the implications and ongoing nature of the Total Information Awareness (TIA) program, which was officially shut down but allegedly continues under a different name within the NSA. Participants express concerns about privacy, government power, and the potential misuse of personal data collected by such programs.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Meta-discussion

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants argue that the TIA program represents a significant threat to personal freedoms and privacy, suggesting that the accumulation of personal data could be misused by future administrations.
  • Others contend that shutting down the program based on hypothetical misuse assumes that a crime will occur, which they find problematic in a society that values "innocent until proven guilty."
  • One participant highlights the necessity of government power to maintain order and suggests that concerns about government power must be nuanced rather than absolute.
  • There are claims that the current administration has circumvented Congressional oversight by moving the program to the NSA, raising concerns about accountability.
  • Some participants express skepticism about the argument that misuse of data is a sufficient reason to shut down the program, questioning the validity of the premise that such misuse will occur.
  • Concerns are raised about the potential for political manipulation of personal data, with examples provided of how information could be weaponized against individuals in political contexts.
  • Participants challenge each other's reasoning, with some asserting that the potential for misuse is a valid concern while others dismiss it as trivial or speculative.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

The discussion remains unresolved, with multiple competing views on the implications of the TIA program and the validity of concerns regarding privacy and government power. Participants do not reach consensus on whether the program should be allowed to continue or the assumptions underlying its potential misuse.

Contextual Notes

Participants express varying assumptions about the nature of government power, the role of data collection in society, and the implications of privacy violations, which remain unresolved throughout the discussion.

  • #61
loseyourname said:
What is the 72 hours figure you're citing? Is that the normal span of time between search and notification in a delayed-notice search warrant? Or is there actually some provision already in place whereby a law enforcement or intelligence official can carry out a wiretap without a warrant for 72 hours?
Under the provisions of FISA, the government can use all the intelligence methods at its disposal to spy on you, and can do so for 72 hours before notifying the FISA court, which approves about 99% of all requests, from what I can determine. The standard is set very low - the AG's office only needs to state that they suspect you of being an agent of a foreign entity. The reason that the Bushies want to side-step even this modest requirement is that they want to cast a much wider net, and they cannot do this under the oversight of the FISA court, since it would be pretty hard to prove that hundreds of millions of US citizens are agents of foreign powers.