Carroll GR: Tangent Space & Partial Derivatives

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the interpretation of derivatives in the context of general relativity, specifically how to express the derivative of a function defined on an n-manifold in terms of a parameterized curve. Participants explore the implications of composite functions and the assumptions involved in differentiating functions along curves.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the validity of equating the derivative of a function from an n-manifold to that of a composite map from R to R, indicating a lack of clarity in the transition between these concepts.
  • Another participant suggests that the first equality is a definition, interpreting the function f as dependent on the parameter λ through the curve γ.
  • A concrete example is provided, illustrating how to differentiate a function of two variables along a parameterized curve, while noting the assumptions about coordinate systems and dimensionality that may not hold in all cases.
  • Clarification is sought regarding whether the function f is being defined as f(γ(λ)), emphasizing the implicit assumptions made for brevity in notation.
  • Participants reflect on the challenges of understanding the conceptual framework of functions as maps and the chaining of these maps, particularly in the context of general relativity.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the need for clarity regarding the definitions and assumptions involved in the differentiation process. However, there remains some uncertainty about the implications of these definitions and the assumptions made regarding coordinate systems.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include assumptions about the dimensionality of the space and the applicability of single coordinate systems to cover all scenarios, which may not be universally valid.

chartery
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TL;DR
Difficulty understanding first equality in equation 2.9 (p 43) of Carroll's lecture notes.
He draws an n-manifold M, a coordinate chart φ : M → Rn, a curve γ : R → M, and a function f : M → R, and wants to specify ##\frac d {d\lambda}## in terms of ##\partial_\mu##.
##\lambda## is the parameter along ##\gamma##, and ##x^\mu## the co-ordinates in ##\text{R}^n##.

His first equality is ##\frac d {d\lambda}\text{f}## = ##\frac d {d\lambda}##(##\text {f} \circ \gamma##).
It is not clear to me how he can equate the derivative of a map from M to R, with that of a composite map from R to R.

(Feel free to indicate that the question shows my knowledge is inadequate for this level of study! :rolleyes:)
 
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He really means the function ##f## seen as a function of ##\lambda##, so ##f\circ \gamma## so the first step is more of a definition of what he means.
 
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Concrete (well, partly concrete) example: you have a function ##f(x,y)## defined on a 2d plane and a path ##\gamma## on that plane whose points have coordinates ##x_\gamma(\lambda)## and ##y_\gamma(\lambda)##, so the curve is parameterised by ##\lambda##. To calculate ##\frac d{d\lambda}f(x,y)## you just sub in the curve - ##\frac d{d\lambda}f(x_\gamma(\lambda),y_\gamma(\lambda))##, and now you've got a function of ##\lambda## that you can differentiate. OK so far?

The above maths, though, makes assumptions about coordinates that you may not wish to make (e.g. sometimes you can't make a single coordinate system cover all the space and the path might move between patches), and also assumes a dimension of 2. So Carrol is observing without explicit dependence on coordinates or dimensionality that to differentiate ##f## with respect to ##\lambda## he first needs to express ##f## as ##f(\lambda)##, and that's what ##f\circ\gamma## does.
 
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Many thanks for helpful replies. To be sure I understand, he is defining his (plain!) f here to be f(##\gamma##(##\lambda##)) ?
 
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chartery said:
Many thanks for helpful replies. To be sure I understand, he is defining his (plain!) f here to be f(##\gamma##(##\lambda##)) ?
Yes, you will often see this implicit assumption for brevity of notation.
 
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Obvious with hindsight, though I think the diagram preceding, and the lack of any reference to f as a composite sent me on the detour. Thanks again.
 
Carroll's notes were the first GR text I read. I think that idea of functions as maps from one space of one dimensionality to another, and chaining those maps together in order to export structure from one space into another, is one of the things I found harder to integrate into my thinking. Not because it's particularly difficult, but because it's a very different way of looking at something very familiar, and Carroll perhaps doesn't spend quite enough time (for me, anyway) on introducing it before using it with cheerful abandon.
 
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@Ibix I'm with you on the cheerful, not to say complete, abandon :-)
 
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