Chandrasekhar's Transitivity Logic

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter robotopia
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Logic
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the mathematical assertion of the transitivity of thermal equilibrium as presented in Chandrasekhar's work on stellar structure. Participants are exploring the implications of this transitivity in relation to a specific mathematical form involving temperature and pressure-volume conditions.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant seeks clarification on why the transitivity of thermal equilibrium is both necessary and sufficient for a specific mathematical condition involving temperature differences.
  • Another participant suggests that defining "transitivity of thermal equilibrium" may help others understand the question better, indicating a potential gap in familiarity with the term.
  • A different participant emphasizes that transitivity is a mathematical concept, explaining it in terms of relations and providing a formal definition.
  • A participant proposes a mathematical framework to express the relationship in question, defining a function and a relation on a set of positive real numbers.
  • One participant expresses skepticism about the claim that the relationship can be expressed in the proposed form, providing a counterexample involving specific values and a function that has multiple zeroes.
  • This participant suggests that the physical context may impose additional constraints that are not captured in the purely mathematical formulation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not appear to reach consensus on the validity of the mathematical assertion regarding the expression of the relationship. There are competing views on the implications of transitivity and the assumptions required for the mathematical formulation.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the potential limitations of the mathematical approach when applied to physical systems, suggesting that additional physical laws or constraints may be necessary to fully understand the relationship in question.

robotopia
Messages
13
Reaction score
0
I've just started reading Chandrasekhar's Introduction to the Study of Stellar Structure, and I'm having trouble following one of his mathematical assertions. Rather than quote the relevant parts in their entirety here, I've typeset them and linked them https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B22qV5-nFyVYSnVnQy1EYmlZQ00/edit. (For those interested, the entire book is available from the http://archive.org/details/AnIntroductionToTheStudyOfStellarStructure). I hope using an outside link isn't bad manners in forums.

What I don't understand, and would like someone to explain, is why the transitivity of thermal equilibrium is both sufficient and necessary (cf "this is then, and only then, possible...") for the condition of thermal equilibrium to have the form

t1(p1,V1) - t2(p2,V2) = 0

(same as Eq (4) in Chandrasekhar, but where I've used subscripts instead of bars). Clearly anything of that form implies transitivity, but I don't understand why transitivity implies that form. Any help?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
robotopia said:
What I don't understand, and would like someone to explain, is why the transitivity of thermal equilibrium is both sufficient and necessary

You'll probably get more help if you define "transitivity of thermal equilibrium" - or post in a physics section where the audience might be familiar with that phrase.
 
Stephen Tashi said:
You'll probably get more help if you define "transitivity of thermal equilibrium" - or post in a physics section where the audience might be familiar with that phrase.

Transitivity is a purely mathematical concept. I think physicists would be less likely to understand it than mathematicians. If ~ is some relation, then transitivity is the statement that if a~b and b~c, then a~c. "Transitivity of thermal equilibrium" just means that if some physical system A is in thermal equilibrium with system B, and B is in thermal equilibrium with C, then A is in thermal equilibrium with C. The fact that in this case the relation happens to have a physical interpretation doesn't make my question anything other than a purely mathematical one. Chandrasekhar himself gives the mathematical definition of thermal equilibrium in Eq (1) which I included in the link above.
 
Let me recast the statement of my question in purely mathematical terms.

Let [itex]S = \{(a,b)|a,b \in \mathbb{R}; a>0; b>0\}[/itex].

Define a function [itex]F:(S \times S) \rightarrow \mathbb{R}[/itex], and define a relation [itex]\sim[/itex] on [itex]S[/itex] such that two elements [itex]s_1,s_2 \in S[/itex] are related [itex]s_1 \sim s_2[/itex] iff [itex]F(s_1,s_2) = 0[/itex].
If [itex]\sim[/itex] is transitive (assume reflexive and symmetric only if necessary), show that [itex]F(s_1,s_2) = 0[/itex] can then and only then be expressed in the form
[tex]T_1(s_1) - T_2(s_2) = 0,[/tex]
where [itex]T_1,T_2:S \rightarrow \mathbb{R}[/itex] can be any arbitrary functions.
 
robotopia said:
show that [itex]F(s_1,s_2) = 0[/itex] can then and only then be expressed in the form
[tex]T_1(s_1) - T_2(s_2) = 0,[/tex]
where [itex]T_1,T_2:S \rightarrow \mathbb{R}[/itex] can be any arbitrary functions.

I doubt that's true. We can try [itex]a = 1/2, b = 7/2, f(x,y) = y((x-1)(x-2)(x-3))^2 + x((y-1)(y-2)(y-3))^2[/itex], which has zeroes at (1,1)(1,2),(1,3),(2,1),(2,2),(2,3),(3,1),(3,2),(3,3).

The physics problem must make stronger assumptions - perhaps something about physical laws being invariant under a linear transformation of the quantity that measures [itex]s_1,s_2[/itex].
 

Similar threads

Replies
3
Views
3K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
  • · Replies 63 ·
3
Replies
63
Views
7K
Replies
3
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
7K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
12K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
Replies
7
Views
10K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
3K