Change in average atomic mass in universe through time?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the change in average atomic mass in the universe over time, particularly in relation to stellar processes such as fusion and fission. Participants explore how the formation of heavier elements from lighter ones in stars affects the overall atomic mass and the implications for the composition of the universe as it ages.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that as stars fuse lighter atoms into heavier ones, the average atomic mass of the universe will increase over time, leading to a decrease in the abundance of lighter elements.
  • Others argue that while fusion creates heavier elements, the mass of the resulting heavier atom is less than the sum of the lighter atoms due to mass-energy equivalence, suggesting a fluctuation in mass rather than a straightforward increase.
  • A participant notes that the relative abundance of heavy nuclei can be used to estimate the age of the universe, indicating a correlation between stellar generation and metallicity.
  • Some participants mention that processes such as supernovas create high-mass elements that decay through fission, contributing to the overall atomic mass dynamics, but the stable mid-weight elements like iron and nickel dominate the composition.
  • There is a correction regarding the number of heavier atoms produced from fusion, with a participant clarifying that 100 hydrogen atoms would yield 25 helium atoms, not 50.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that the average atomic mass will increase as heavier elements become more prevalent, but there is disagreement on the implications of mass loss during fusion and the overall trends in atomic composition. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the exact dynamics and theories that govern these processes.

Contextual Notes

Some assumptions about the closed system of the universe and the processes involved in stellar nucleosynthesis are not fully explored, and there are unresolved mathematical steps regarding the exact changes in atomic mass during fusion and fission.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those studying astrophysics, stellar evolution, and nucleosynthesis processes, as well as individuals curious about the composition of the universe and its changes over time.

dkm0038
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My understanding is that matter tends to converge and form stars and in those stars fusion creates heavier atoms from lighter atoms, and this process repeats continuously. if this is true wouldn't it imply that throughout these star cycles the average atomic mass will just increase, and as the universe gets older there will be less light atoms and more heavier atoms? or does fission occur in novas producing light atoms from heavier atoms and thus creating some sort of steady state spread of atomic mass in these cycles?
 
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Nope. Good question, but when fusion occurs in stars it often takes more than one atom to create the next. So if you were to take 100 atoms (say hydrogen) and put them through the process of fusion, you'll end up with 50 heavier atoms (Helium). But the heavier atom doesn't actually have the same mass as the sum of the masses of the two lighter atoms! This means there is a net decrease in mass by fusion. In the process of fusion, you have light released (hence why stars shine), and Einstein told us energy and mass are equivalent. When light is released by fusion it essentially takes away a little mass in the form of energy. So, the mass in the universe can fluctuate up and down through various processes, but energy is constant. (This is under the assumption that the universe as a whole is a closed system which to the best of my knowledge is the accepted scientific stance.)
 
dkm0038 said:
if this is true wouldn't it imply that throughout these star cycles the average atomic mass will just increase, and as the universe gets older there will be less light atoms and more heavier atoms?
Yes. The relative abundance of heavy nuclei in the universe provides one way to estimate its age, since the initial abundances can be reasonably well calculated.
It's also a marker of which generation a given star belongs to (high 'metallicity' = recently born; low metallicity = old geezers; where 'metals' are all elements heavier than Helium).

@Physicist97 if you have a 100 hydrogen atoms, and you combine them to form 50 deuterium atoms, then your average atomic mass nearly doubled. Their total mass is lower than before, but that's not what the OP was asking about.
 
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Physicist97 said:
Nope.

The average atomic mass will increase as the percentage of heavier elements increases, but you are correct that a heavier element has less mass than the sum of the masses of the lighter elements used to create it.

dkm0038 said:
if this is true wouldn't it imply that throughout these star cycles the average atomic mass will just increase, and as the universe gets older there will be less light atoms and more heavier atoms?

That's right.

dkm0038 said:
or does fission occur in novas producing light atoms from heavier atoms and thus creating some sort of steady state spread of atomic mass in these cycles?

Various processes in stars, mainly supernovas, create high-mass elements which are radioactive and will decay through fission until they reach stability. However the amount of high-mass radioactive elements is far outweighed by the amount of stable mid-weight elements such as iron, nickel, etc. The overall trend is for the percentage of hydrogen, helium, and other light elements to decrease and for the percentage of mid-mass elements to increase.
 
thanks for the feedback all, does anyone know of any specific theories that deal with this? maybe something that relates stars initial composition and mass to final composition?
 
Physicist97 said:
So if you were to take 100 atoms (say hydrogen) and put them through the process of fusion, you'll end up with 50 heavier atoms (Helium).
It should also be pointed out that you will end up with 25 helium, not 50.
 
dkm0038 said:
thanks for the feedback all, does anyone know of any specific theories that deal with this? maybe something that relates stars initial composition and mass to final composition?

Sure. Here you go: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellar_nucleosynthesis
That article and the others it links to should give you a good overview of the processes involved.
 

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