Clarification about conserved currents in the Standard Model

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the conserved currents in the Standard Model of particle physics, particularly focusing on the symmetries before and after spontaneous symmetry breaking (SSB). Participants explore the implications of these symmetries on various currents associated with electroweak and color interactions, as well as the nature of baryon number conservation.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question whether the three currents from SU(2) are completely gone after SSB, noting the ambiguity in what "completely gone" means.
  • There is a discussion about the Higgs field losing U(1) symmetry after SSB, with some arguing that this is a consequence of symmetry breaking rather than an arbitrary choice regarding the Higgs vev.
  • Participants express confusion regarding the concept of "color conservation" and whether it refers to all eight conserved currents associated with SU(3).
  • One participant clarifies that baryon number is a distinct U(1) symmetry, which arises from the fermion content of the Standard Model rather than being an imposed gauge symmetry.
  • There is an exploration of why W-bosons carry electric charge and how this relates to the residual U(1) symmetry, with some noting that the photon interacts with W-bosons due to their SU(2) self-interactions.
  • Questions arise about the relationship between the eight Noether currents and the color charges, with some participants discussing the assignment of colors in relation to the fundamental representation of SU(3).
  • Concerns are raised about the misleading nature of introductory material regarding color assignments, with a participant arguing that the usual descriptions do not accurately reflect the underlying symmetries and representations.
  • There is a detailed explanation of how baryons transform under the singlet representation, emphasizing the anti-symmetrization needed to form a singlet from three color states.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various viewpoints and uncertainties regarding the nature of conserved currents and color assignments, indicating that multiple competing views remain and the discussion is unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Some limitations include the dependence on definitions of symmetry and conservation, as well as unresolved questions about the implications of SSB on the currents and the nature of color charge assignments.

HomogenousCow
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I'm currently doing a course on the Standard Model and I think I've gotten confused on some of the symmetries and resulting currents. Here's my current understanding:

Before SSB:
Electroweak - U(1) symmetry on fermion spinors and Higgs complex doublet, 1 conserved current
Electroweak - SU(2) symmetry on Higgs complex doublet, quark and lepton spinor doublets (left-handed spinors), 3 conserved currents
Color - SU(3) symmetry on quark spinor triplets, 8 conserved currents

After SSB:
EM - U(1) residual symmetry on fermion spinors, 1 conserved current
Color - Same as before, 8 conserved currents

So my questions are follows:
1. Are the 3 currents from SU(2) completely gone after SSB?
2. Why must the Higgs field lose U(1) symmetry after SSB? It feels arbitrary that the Higgs field is chosen to be real after SSB.
3. Why do we talk about "color conservation" when there are in fact 8 conserved currents due to SU(3)?
4. I've read about a conserved "baryon number" due to U(1) symmetry, is this another distinct U(1) symmetry?
5. Why do the W-bosons carry electric charge?? Do they participate in the residual U(1) symmetry?
 
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1. You can write down whatever currents you want. That does not mean that such a current will be conserved. It depends on what you mean by "completely gone".
2. What do you mean by "lose U(1) symmetry"? That the Higgs is not charged under the remaining U(1)? This is a direct consequence of how the symmetry is broken and does not have anything to do with choosing the vev to be real. The choice of a real vev is just an issue of a choice of basis. If you changed basis you would get a different generator of the remaining U(1) under which your new Higgs would still be uncharged.
3. I am sorry, but I do not understand the question. Color conservation would refer to all of those currents.
4. Yes it is a distinct symmetry, which is accidental in the SM, i.e., it is not imposed as a gauge symmetry but is a result of the fermion content of the model (the actual symmetry is B-L, baryon and lepton number individually are broken by non-perturbative effects in the SM).
5. This is a direct remnant from the SU(2) self-interactions before symmetry breaking and the fact that the photon has a non-zero component of the gauge boson ##W_3##. Hence, the photon must couple to ##W_1## and ##W_2##. Yes, ##W^\pm## interact electromagnetically.
 
Orodruin said:
1. You can write down whatever currents you want. That does not mean that such a current will be conserved. It depends on what you mean by "completely gone".

Yes what I meant to ask was, are the original 3 currents due to SU(3) still conserved after SSB?

Orodruin said:
3. I am sorry, but I do not understand the question. Color conservation would refer to all of those currents.

How are the 8 Noether currents related to the color charges (Red/Anti-Red etc.)?
 
HomogenousCow said:
How are the 8 Noether currents related to the color charges (Red/Anti-Red etc.)?
The assignment of red/green/blue is based on the fundamental representation of SU(3). The conserved Noether currents are based on the one-parameter continuous symmetries generated by each of the generators, i.e., the adjoint representation (i.e., the traceless part of ##{\bf 3 \otimes \bar 3}##).
 
Okay, so the color assignments are not related to any conserved quantities? They're often compared to electric charge so I was under the impression that they were conserved in some way.
 
The way that "color" is often referred to in introductory material is misleading in my opinion. One would like to associate the three colors/anticolors with the three color indices (and conjugate indices for anticolors), but with this assignment the usual way people assign colors to hadrons doesn't make sense. For example, people often refer to mesons as being red*antired=white or blue*antiblue=white etc, but since it is really in the singlet representation (the trace of) of the tensor product \mathbf{3}\otimes\overline{\mathbf{3}}, a meson is really something like (red*antired + green*antigreen+blue*antiblue)/sqrt(3). It's rather important that there is only one combination of these which is a singlet ("white"), otherwise there would be more mesons than we actually observe.

This is especially true of baryons, which transform under the only singlet obtained from decomposing in the tensor product \mathbf{3}\otimes\mathbf{3}\otimes\mathbf{3} into irreps. I don't even know how to write this out in the "color" language (and it wouldn't be very useful), but it's certainly not "red*green*blue".
 
king vitamin said:
This is especially true of baryons, which transform under the only singlet obtained from decomposing in the tensor product 3⊗3⊗33⊗3⊗3\mathbf{3}\otimes\mathbf{3}\otimes\mathbf{3} into irreps. I don't even know how to write this out in the "color" language (and it wouldn't be very useful), but it's certainly not "red*green*blue".
The singlet is the completely anti-symmetric combination. This is seen relatively easy if you use Young tableaux multiplications as the only way to create a singlet out of three boxes (fundamental representation) is to stack them on top of each other - ie, anti-symmetrisation.

This is why it is common to refer to it as rgb. Each part of the linear combination has one of each color:
(rgb + gbr + brg - rbg - bgr - grb)/sqrt(6)
 
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