Form of the Standard Model: Higgs-Fermion Yukawa Coupling

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion focuses on the form of the Yukawa coupling in the Higgs sector of the Standard Model, specifically the use of the anti-symmetric tensor ##{ \hat { \varepsilon } }_{ 2 }## in coupling the Higgs doublet to up-type fermions. Participants explore the implications of this choice and its relation to symmetry properties and gauge invariance.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question the necessity of the anti-symmetric tensor ##{ \hat { \varepsilon } }_{ 2 }## for flipping the Higgs doublet, suggesting that a symmetric matrix could also be considered.
  • Others argue that the choice of the anti-symmetric tensor is related to the transformation properties under weak ##SU(2)## transformations.
  • A participant points out that there are diagonal lines of symmetry in the matrix, but questions the relevance of these symmetry lines to the coupling term.
  • Some express confusion about the implications of symmetry in the context of the Yukawa coupling and its necessity for generating mass terms for up-type quarks.
  • There is mention of the charge conjugate doublet and its transformation properties as a potential reason for using the anti-symmetric tensor.
  • A later reply emphasizes that the allowed interactions must be gauge-invariant terms in the Lagrangian.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the appropriateness of the anti-symmetric tensor versus a symmetric matrix, and there is no consensus on the reasons for the choice made in the Yukawa coupling. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of symmetry and gauge invariance in this context.

Contextual Notes

Some participants reference the need for gauge invariance in the Lagrangian, but the specific mathematical steps or assumptions underlying the choice of the anti-symmetric tensor are not fully explored or agreed upon.

tomdodd4598
Messages
137
Reaction score
13
TL;DR
Why does the Higgs coupling to up-type fermions take the form it does?
Hey there,

I was looking at the Higgs sector of the standard model, particularly its coupling to the fermions:
##\mathscr{L}_{ yukawa }=-\sum _{ a,b=1 }^{ 3 }{ \left( { Y }_{ ab }^{ u }{ \bar { Q } }_{ a }{ \hat { \varepsilon } }_{ 2 }{ H }^{ \dagger }{ u }_{ b }+{ Y }_{ ab }^{ d }{ \bar { Q } }_{ a }H{ d }_{ b }+{ Y }_{ ab }^{ e }{ \bar { L } }_{ a }H{ e }_{ b } \right) } +h.c.##

Where the ##{ Y }^{ f }## are the Yukawa coupling matrices, ##Q## holds the quark doublets, ##u## holds the up-type quark singlets, ##d## holds the down-type quark singlets, ##L## holds the lepton doublets, ##e## holds the charged lepton singlets, ##{ \hat { \varepsilon } }_{ 2 }## is the two-dimensional anti-symmetric tensor and ##H## is the Higgs doublet.

The up-type piece of this expression contains ##{ \hat { \varepsilon } }_{ 2 }## to 'flip' the Higgs doublet so that, when the Higgs acquires its non-zero VEV, ##H=\frac { 1 }{ \sqrt { 2 } } \left[ \begin{matrix} 0 \\ v+h \end{matrix} \right] ##, the up-type quarks correctly get their mass terms.

This question is already rather long-winded, but it is a simple one: is there a good reason for the choice of the anti-symmetric ##{ \hat { \varepsilon } }_{ 2 }## to flip the doublet over the symmetric ##\begin{bmatrix} 0 & 1 \\ 1 & 0 \end{bmatrix}##?
 
Last edited:
Physics news on Phys.org
The system isn't letting me fully quote a prior post so I edited mine out as well as I could within what the system allowed.
 
sysprog said:
Well, obviously, it's not up-down or left-right symmetrical, so please consider the angular axes, and I bet you'll immediately know why the 'flip' was done . . .
I think the initial response was deleted, but this is what I saw in the email notification. What isn’t up-down or left-right symmetric? Which angular axes?
 
tomdodd4598 said:
Summary:: Why does the Higgs coupling to up-type fermions take the form it does?

Hey there,

I was looking at the Higgs sector of the standard model, particularly its coupling to the fermions:
##\mathscr{L}_{ yukawa }=-\sum _{ a,b=1 }^{ 3 }{ \left( { Y }_{ ab }^{ u }{ \bar { Q } }_{ a }{ \hat { \varepsilon } }_{ 2 }{ H }^{ \dagger }{ u }_{ b }+{ Y }_{ ab }^{ d }{ \bar { Q } }_{ a }H{ d }_{ b }+{ Y }_{ ab }^{ e }{ \bar { L } }_{ a }H{ e }_{ b } \right) } +h.c.##

Where the ##{ Y }^{ f }## are the Yukawa coupling matrices, ##Q## holds the quark doublets, ##u## holds the up-type quark singlets, ##d## holds the down-type quark singlets, ##L## holds the lepton doublets, ##e## holds the charged lepton singlets, ##{ \hat { \varepsilon } }_{ 2 }## is the two-dimensional anti-symmetric tensor and ##H## is the Higgs doublet.

The up-type piece of this expression contains ##{ \hat { \varepsilon } }_{ 2 }## to 'flip' the Higgs doublet so that, when the Higgs acquires its non-zero VEV, ##H=\frac { 1 }{ \sqrt { 2 } } \left[ \begin{matrix} 0 \\ v+h \end{matrix} \right] ##, the up-type quarks correctly get their mass terms.

This question is already rather long-winded, but it is a simple one: is there a good reason for the choice of the anti-symmetric ##{ \hat { \varepsilon } }_{ 2 }## to flip the doublet over the symmetric ##\begin{bmatrix} 0 & 1 \\ 1 & 0 \end{bmatrix}##?
tomdodd4598 said:
I think the initial response was deleted, but this is what I saw in the email notification. What isn’t up-down or left-right symmetric? Which angular axes?
$$\begin{bmatrix} 0 & 1 \\ 1 & 0 \end{bmatrix}$$
I meant merely that the upper left to lower right and the upper right to lower left, in either direction, were lines of symmetry, and that the others were not.
 
sysprog said:
I meant merely that the upper left to lower right and the upper right to lower left, in either direction, were lines of symmetry, and that the others were not.
Sorry, I must be missing something. In what sense are they ‘lines of symmetry’ other than that the elements are the same? Why does that mean it can’t be used in the coupling term?
 
I think the answer is that ##{ \hat { \varepsilon } }_{ 2 }{ H }^{ \dagger }## transforms correctly under the weak ##SU(2)## transformations?
 
You asked what reason there is to 'flip' the doublet to 'anti-symmetric' -- there is no 'anti-symmetric' as far as I know -- yes, there's 'asymmetric', and 'non-symmetric' -- I just wanted to point out, and then wanted to retract, but I can never not have said anything that I have ever said, the obvious fact that there are on your diagram no vertical or horizontal lines of symmetry; but yes, there are 2 diagonal lines of symmetry on it.
 
tomdodd4598 said:
I think the answer is that ##{ \hat { \varepsilon } }_{ 2 }{ H }^{ \dagger }## transforms correctly under the weak ##SU(2)## transformations?
Please look at the non-commutative super-unary 3 group. (hint: QCD)
 
sysprog said:
You asked what reason there is to 'flip' the doublet to 'anti-symmetric' -- there is no 'anti-symmetric' as far as I know -- yes, there's 'asymmetric', and 'non-symmetric' -- I just wanted to point out, and then wanted to retract, but I can never not have said anything that I have ever said, the obvious fact that there are on your diagram no vertical or horizontal lines of symmetry; but yes, there are 2 diagonal lines of symmetry on it.
No, I'm asking why the doublet is 'flipped' in the way it is. It has to be flipped in order to get the mass term for the up-type quarks. We take the hermitian conjugate to get the correct hypercharge, and then apply the anti-symmetric matrix rather than the symmetric counterpart. I don't understand why the 'lines of symmetry' of the matrix are important, nor am I sure why looking at ##SU(3)## (which I'm guessing is what you're referring to) would be useful...
 
  • #10
edited
 
Last edited:
  • Skeptical
Likes   Reactions: tomdodd4598
  • #11
Anyways, I think the answer is indeed that ##{ \hat { \varepsilon } }_{ 2 }{ H }^{ \dagger }## represents the charge conjugate doublet and transforms correctly under the weak ##SU(2)## transformations, hence why it is used rather than anything else.
 
  • #12
You just write down the allowed interactions of the Higgs doublet with the leptons and quarks, where "allowed" means it's a gauge-invariant term in the Lagrangian. For details about the ew. sector of the standard model, see my review slides here (theory lecture 1):

https://itp.uni-frankfurt.de/~hees/hqm-lectweek14/index.html
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 0 ·
Replies
0
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
4K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 17 ·
Replies
17
Views
3K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
3K