Closed loop spark advance and it's effect on abnormal combustion.

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of closed loop spark advance in internal combustion engines and its potential effects on abnormal combustion phenomena such as detonation and pre-ignition. Participants explore the implications of maintaining a constant peak pressure position and the challenges associated with ignition control under varying conditions.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether controlling spark advance to maintain a constant peak pressure could lead to detonation or pre-ignition, suggesting that rising cylinder temperatures might push the peak pressure closer to TDC, prompting the controller to retard timing.
  • Another participant argues that changes in fuel amount or mechanical separation of air/fuel can still lead to abnormal combustion, despite advanced monitoring capabilities, emphasizing the role of hot spots and fuel coagulation in detonation or pre-ignition.
  • A participant acknowledges the importance of knock detection as a safeguard against abnormal combustion.
  • One contributor suggests that a broader range of literature should be consulted to understand combustion efficiency and prevention of abnormal combustion, indicating that multiple methods exist and more may yet be discovered.
  • A participant expresses concern over the limited research on closed loop ignition control, noting that traditional ECU timing curves do not adapt to changing combustion conditions and that relying solely on peak pressure could be misleading, as early stages of knock can occur without a shift in peak pressure.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views on the effectiveness and limitations of closed loop spark advance, with no clear consensus on the best approach to prevent abnormal combustion. Multiple competing perspectives on the factors influencing combustion stability remain present.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on specific definitions of abnormal combustion, the variability of combustion conditions, and the unresolved nature of the relationship between peak pressure and knock onset.

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Recently I read about Saab's experiments at closed loop spark advance, and it got me wondering. If you are controlling spark advance to maintain a constant peak pressure position of 20 deg after TDC is it possible to get into a situation where detonation or pre-ignition is possible. It seems to me that as cylinder temperature starts rising it will push the peak pressure closer to TDC which should drive the controller to retard timing before any abnormal combustion can occur. Any thoughts?

http://www.max-boost.co.uk/max-boost/internet_articles/Spark-Advance%20Control%20by%20Ion-Sensing%20and%20Interpretation.htm
 
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Apart from not reading the article yet, if your fuel amount changes for some reason, or, if there is mechanical separation of air/fuel within the chamber. Having the amount of monitoring capabilities & adjustability we have today, its much more difficult to get into the abnormal areas. Doesn't rule out the detonation or pre-ignition possibilities IMO. All it takes is a hot spot ahead of the flame front with a little coagulation of fuel, heat and pressure from mechanical and approaching flame front. If we can harness the best possible process we could influence in the chamber we can prevent to a point, damaging combustion.
 
Thanks! Guess I will be using knock detection as well at least as a safeguard.
 
Well, I would read more than that article to make a choice of how you maintain good combustion efficiency and prevent abnormal combustion. Numerous ways have been done and there are still more ways out there. They just haven't been found yet.
 
The problem I am facing is that there is little research on closed loop ignition control. Using ecu timing curves does not allow for changing timing as combustion itself changes, it only allows for limited changes based on known variables like ECT or IAT. I think I did find the answer though, by looking at several different sources for combustion pressures during knock. The first stages of knock happen without shifting the peak pressure. So relying on peak pressure alone is dangerous.
 

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