Confusion over the definition of Lie Derivative of a Vector Field

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the definition and properties of the Lie Derivative of a vector field, particularly focusing on its differentiability and the implications of the flow of a vector field being defined on a subset of a manifold. Participants are exploring theoretical aspects and mathematical reasoning related to this concept.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the differentiability of the Lie Derivative and its definition on the entire manifold, given that the flow may only be defined on a smaller open set.
  • Another participant asserts that the flow of a time-independent vector field is defined at all points of the manifold for a certain time interval.
  • A participant expresses confusion about the smoothness of the mapping from time to the coefficients of the vector field, seeking clarification on why this is true for fixed points.
  • There is a suggestion to find an explicit expression for the coefficients involved in the Lie Derivative to clarify the concerns raised.
  • A participant shares their calculation of the pullback of a basis vector under the flow and notes a discrepancy with a reference book, questioning which result is correct and its relevance to the argument.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not appear to reach consensus on the smoothness of the mapping or the implications of the flow being defined on a subset of the manifold. Multiple competing views and uncertainties remain regarding the mathematical details and definitions involved.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in understanding the smoothness of certain mappings and the implications of the flow's domain, which may affect the interpretation of the Lie Derivative.

slevvio
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Hello all, I was hoping someone would be able to clarify this issue I am having with the Lie Derivative of a vector field.

We define the lie derivative of a vector field Y with respect to a vector field X to be

L_X Y :=\operatorname{\frac{d}{dt}} |_{t=0} (\phi_t^*Y), where \phi_t is the flow of X. Now how do I know this thing is differentiable? And also, I'm not sure why this thing is a vector field on M because what if our flow is only defined on a smaller open set V \subseteq M, and then for p \in M\setminus V surely (L_X Y)_p doesn't make sense as a vector in T_p M ?

Anyway thank you, any help would be appreciated.
 
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First concern: You know that phi varies smoothly with t. Go through the definitions to discover that wrt some fixed basis d/dx^i of T_pM, ((\phi_t)_*Y)(p)=\sum_ia_i(t,p)\frac{ \partial}{ \partial x^i} with a_i(t,p) smooth in t.

Second concern: the flow of any time-independent vector field is defined at all points p of M for a certain time interval (-\epsilon_p,\epsilon_p)
 
Thanks for your response. I understand the 2nd concern but I still have trouble with the first. I cannot see why that statement is true. I know that \phi_t ^* Y is a vector field, so \phi_t^* Y |_p \in T_p M , i.e.

\phi_t^* Y |_p = \displaystyle\sum_i a_i^t (p) \frac{\partial}{\partial x_i }\Big|_p where for fixed t, p \mapsto a_i^t (p) is smooth. But why for fixed p, is t \mapsto a_i^t(p) smooth?

I have that \phi_t^* Y |_p (g) = Y(g \circ \phi_t ^{-1})|_{\phi_t(p)} incidentally. Thanks for any help
 
You're not "going through the definitions" deep enough. What I was suggesting is for you to find an explicit expression for the a_i(t,p).
 
Hello I have tried to do this using the Jacobian but I am not getting anywhere at all
 
Hello,

I have managed to calculate that

\phi_{-t}^*\left( \displaystyle\frac{\partial}{\partial x_j} \Bigg|_{\phi_t(p)} \right)= \displaystyle\sum_{i,j} \frac{\partial \phi^i}{\partial x_j}(-t, \phi_t(p)) \frac{\partial}{\partial x_j} \Bigg|_p,

although in Loring Tu's book the same calculation gives

\phi_{-t}^*\left( \displaystyle\frac{\partial}{\partial x_j} \Bigg|_{\phi_t(p)} \right)= \displaystyle\sum_{i,j} \frac{\partial \phi^i}{\partial x_j}(-t, p) \frac{\partial}{\partial x_j} \Bigg|_p.

Which is correct, and should it matter in the argument?

Thanks for help so far.
 

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