Confusion regarding the $\partial_{\mu}$ operator

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the derivation of the Klein-Gordon equation from the Lagrangian density, specifically addressing the use of the partial derivative operator $\partial_{\mu}$ and the implications of raising and lowering indices in the context of four-vectors. Participants explore the meaning of terms in the Lagrangian, the treatment of time and space components, and the correct application of index notation.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express confusion about the term $\frac{1}{2}(\partial_{\mu} \phi)^2$ and its interpretation.
  • There are questions regarding the necessity of separating time and space components in the derivation.
  • One participant suggests that there is a missing minus sign in the expression $\partial_{\mu}\Bigg(\frac{\partial \mathcal{L}}{\partial (\partial_{\mu} \phi)}\Bigg)$, while others challenge this assertion.
  • Another participant introduces the need for a new index $\beta$ to avoid confusion with dummy summation indices and discusses the implications for the Lagrangian density.
  • Concerns are raised about the placement of indices in the derivatives and the implications for the signs of the terms when working with four-vectors.
  • Some participants clarify that the signs of the terms $\partial_{x}\partial^{x}$ and $\partial_{t}\partial^{t}$ do not necessarily have to be opposite, referencing the summation convention for four-vectors.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on whether there is a missing minus sign in the derivation and the correct placement of indices. The discussion remains unresolved, with multiple competing interpretations of the mathematical expressions.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations related to the assumptions about the metric signature and the treatment of indices, which may affect the interpretation of the terms in the Lagrangian and the resulting equations.

saadhusayn
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I'm trying to derive the Klein Gordon equation from the Lagrangian:

$$ \mathcal{L} = \frac{1}{2}(\partial_{\mu} \phi)^2 - \frac{1}{2}m^2 \phi^2$$

$$\partial_{\mu}\Bigg(\frac{\partial \mathcal{L}}{\partial (\partial_{\mu} \phi)}\Bigg) = \partial_{t}\Bigg(\frac{\partial \mathcal{L}}{\partial (\partial_{t} \phi)}\Bigg) + \partial_{x}\Bigg(\frac{\partial \mathcal{L}}{\partial (\partial_{x} \phi)}\Bigg)$$

But if
$$ \frac{\partial \mathcal{L}}{\partial (\partial_{t} \phi)} = \partial_{t} \phi = \partial^{t} \phi$$
And
$$ \frac{\partial \mathcal{L}}{\partial (\partial_{x} \phi)} = -\partial_{x} \phi = \partial^{x} \phi$$
Then
$$\partial_{\mu}\Bigg(\frac{\partial \mathcal{L}}{\partial (\partial_{\mu} \phi)}\Bigg) = \partial_{t} \partial^{t} \phi + \partial_{x} \partial^{x} \phi$$
We seem to missing a minus sign here. Where's the mistake? I'm supposed to get

$$ \partial_{\mu}\partial^{\mu}\phi$$ for this term.
 
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saadhusayn said:
I'm trying to derive the Klein Gordon equation from the Lagrangian:

$$ \mathcal{L} = \frac{1}{2}(\partial_{\mu} \phi)^2 - \frac{1}{2}m^2 \phi^2$$

What does "##\frac{1}{2}(\partial_{\mu} \phi)^2##" mean?

Also, why are you splitting things into time and space components?
 
George Jones said:
What does "##\frac{1}{2}(\partial_{\mu} \phi)^2##" mean?

Also, why are you splitting things into time and space components?

$$ \frac{1}{2}(\partial_{\mu} \phi)^2 = \frac{1}{2}(\partial_{\mu} \phi)(\partial^{\mu} \phi) $$
 
saadhusayn said:
$$ \frac{1}{2}(\partial_{\mu} \phi)^2 = \frac{1}{2}(\partial_{\mu} \phi)(\partial^{\mu} \phi) $$

and
$$\left(\partial_{\mu} \phi)(\partial^{\mu} \phi\right) = g^{\mu \alpha} \left(\partial_{\mu} \phi)(\partial_{\alpha} \phi\right)$$

Now, find
$$\frac{\partial \mathcal{L}}{\partial (\partial_{\beta} \phi)}.$$

Note that I introduced a new index ##\beta##, because an index different than the dummy summation indices ##\mu## and ##\alpha## is needed.
 
George Jones said:
and
$$\left(\partial_{\mu} \phi)(\partial^{\mu} \phi\right) = g^{\mu \alpha} \left(\partial_{\mu} \phi)(\partial_{\alpha} \phi\right)$$

Now, find
$$\frac{\partial \mathcal{L}}{\partial (\partial_{\beta} \phi)}.$$

Note that I introduced a new index ##\beta##, because an index different than the dummy summation indices ##\mu## and ##\alpha## is needed.

Thank you. Is this correct?
$$ \mathcal{L} =\frac{1}{2}g^{\mu \alpha} (\partial_{\mu} \phi)(\partial_{\alpha} \phi) - \frac{1}{2}m^{2} \phi^{2}$$
So
$$\frac{\partial \mathcal{L}}{\partial (\partial_{\beta} \phi)} = \frac{1}{2}g^{\mu\alpha}(\partial_{\mu} \phi \delta^{\alpha}_{\beta} + \partial_{\alpha} \phi \delta^{\beta}_{\mu})$$
Hence,
$$\partial_{\beta}\frac{\partial \mathcal{L}}{\partial (\partial_{\beta} \phi)} = \frac{1}{2}\partial_{\beta}(g^{\mu \beta} \partial_{\mu} \phi + g^{\beta \alpha} \partial_{\alpha} \phi)$$
$$\partial_{\beta}\frac{\partial \mathcal{L}}{\partial (\partial_{\beta} \phi)} = \frac{1}{2}(\partial^{\mu}\partial_{\mu} + \partial^{\alpha}\partial_{\alpha}) $$
Since the first and second terms are the same, we can get rid of the half. And thus
$$ \partial_{\beta}\frac{\partial \mathcal{L}}{\partial (\partial_{\beta} \phi)} = \partial^{\mu}\partial_{\mu}$$
 
I haven't had a chance to look really closely (I will though)

saadhusayn said:
Thank you. Is this correct?
$$ \mathcal{L} =\frac{1}{2}g^{\mu \alpha} (\partial_{\mu} \phi)(\partial_{\alpha} \phi) - \frac{1}{2}m^{2} \phi^{2}$$
So
$$\frac{\partial \mathcal{L}}{\partial (\partial_{\beta} \phi)} = \frac{1}{2}g^{\mu\alpha}(\partial_{\mu} \phi \delta^{\alpha}_{\beta} + \partial_{\alpha} \phi \delta^{\beta}_{\mu})$$

There is a small mistake in the placement of indices in the first term on the right side of the second equation.

From the original post:

saadhusayn said:
Then
$$\partial_{\mu}\Bigg(\frac{\partial \mathcal{L}}{\partial (\partial_{\mu} \phi)}\Bigg) = \partial_{t} \partial^{t} \phi + \partial_{x} \partial^{x} \phi$$
We seem to missing a minus sign here. Where's the mistake? I'm supposed to get

$$ \partial_{\mu}\partial^{\mu}\phi$$ for this term.

Now that I look more closely, I don't see a missing minus sign.
 
George Jones said:
I haven't had a chance to look really closely (I will though)
There is a small mistake in the placement of indices in the first term on the right side of the second equation.

From the original post:
Now that I look more closely, I don't see a missing minus sign.

The ##\mu## is contravariant and the ##\beta ## covariant, right?

Shouldn't $$ \partial_{x}\partial^{x}$$ and $$ \partial_{t}\partial^{t}$$ have opposite signs, since we are working with four vectors?
 
saadhusayn said:
The ##\mu## is contravariant and the ##\beta ## covariant, right?

In the first term on the right side, the ##\delta^\alpha_\beta## should be ##\delta^\beta_\alpha##. Since the summation index ##\alpha## is upstairs on the ##g^{\mu \alpha}## and downstairs on ##\partial_\alpha \phi##, it must be downstairs in the ##\delta##; roughly, since the the index ##\beta## is downstairs in the "denominator" of
$$\frac{\partial \mathcal{L}}{\partial (\partial_{\beta} \phi)},$$
##\beta## should be upstairs in the ##\delta##.

saadhusayn said:
Shouldn't $$ \partial_{x}\partial^{x}$$ and $$ \partial_{t}\partial^{t}$$ have opposite signs, since we are working with four vectors?

No. Remember,
$$A_\mu A^\mu = A_0 A^0 + A_1 A^1 + A_2 A^2 + A_3 A^3 = A^0 A^0 - A^1 A^1 - A^2 A^2 - A^3 A^3.$$
 

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