Consciousness and Epistemology

In summary: I can't see how his characterizations are all that wild. I interpret what Canute is mostly asking is if what math cannot account for might be something essential, unbroken, continuous . . . Such an aspect of reality would be unavailable to both math and reason since they require "parts" to work properly.Now, I suppose whether or not Canute is missing the mark with Goedel is still in question. My opinion is that what Goedel said with mathmatical principles Canute has adequately interpreted for philosophical consideration.
  • #1
Canute
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An admittedly sloppily expressed question to get a discussion going which comes at the problem of consciousness from a more epistemilogical angle.

Goedel’s incompleteness theorems show that for any and every formal and systematic explanation of everything (in all possible universes) there must be a meta-system which cannot be included in the explanation. Many people argue that this is consciousness.

Equivalently every explanation of everything must contain an undefined term. Some people, but fewer than above, argue that this implies that consciousness cannot be defined within any explanation of it. (i.e. that its existence cannot be explained, even if known).

Equivalently any proof-based or observation-based explanation of everything cannot explain the ‘essence’ that underlies matter or the ‘ultimate reality’ that underlies the physical universe. Some people (lots of people this time), argue that essence and ultimate reality are consciousness.

I’ll leave it there and see what happens. Any thoughts?
 
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  • #2
Canute said:
An admittedly sloppily expressed question to get a discussion going which comes at the problem of consciousness from a more epistemilogical angle.

Goedel’s incompleteness theorems show that for any and every formal and systematic explanation of everything (in all possible universes) there must be a meta-system which cannot be included in the explanation. Many people argue that this is consciousness.

Equivalently every explanation of everything must contain an undefined term. Some people, but fewer than above, argue that this implies that consciousness cannot be defined within any explanation of it. (i.e. that its existence cannot be explained, even if known).

Equivalently any proof-based or observation-based explanation of everything cannot explain the ‘essence’ that underlies matter or the ‘ultimate reality’ that underlies the physical universe. Some people (lots of people this time), argue that essence and ultimate reality are consciousness.

I’ll leave it there and see what happens. Any thoughts?

These are wild over-characterizations of what Goedel, or any of his successors, have ever proved. He proved that any deductive system that can prove arithmetic is incomplete, and his successors have showed that any system that includes second order propositional calculus is incomplete. But there are forms of reasoning that don't fall into those categories.
 
  • #3
selfAdjoint said:
These are wild over-characterizations of what Goedel, or any of his successors, have ever proved. He proved that any deductive system that can prove arithmetic is incomplete, and his successors have showed that any system that includes second order propositional calculus is incomplete. But there are forms of reasoning that don't fall into those categories.

I can't see how his characterizations are all that wild. I interpret what Canute is mostly asking is if what math cannot account for might be something essential, unbroken, continuous . . . Such an aspect of reality would be unavailable to both math and reason since they require "parts" to work properly.

Now, I suppose whether or not Canute is missing the mark with Goedel is still in question. My opinion is that what Goedel said with mathmatical principles Canute has adequately interpreted for philosophical consideration.
 
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  • #4
Every time one tries to discuss the incompleteness theorems outside mathematics one is criticised. Even Roger Penrose is called a crackpot for doing it. However I want to take the chance. If I have mis-charaterised or misapplied them then whoever thinks so will have to show me my mistake. (which I will gladly accept if it is one) Otherwise it will remain impossible to talk about their implications outside mathematics, and even Goedel speculated on these.

(In fact they are not all that important to this discussion because what I've said here can be derived from them can be shown in other ways).

Sleeth - that 'unbroken, continuous' stuff isn't quite what I meant but it doesn't matter. The basic issue is that everything we know suggests that any explanation of everything must leave something out, i.e. there is no such thing as a EoE, and what must be left out in every case seems to be our own awareness.

This is hardly a new idea, even in phsyics, but it doesn't get much discussion so I thought I'd risk it.

SelAdjoint - You're right that there are other ways of reasoning. However the question is which type do we use when developing non-trivial complex theories and explanations. As far as I can see we always use formal axiomatic systems.
 
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  • #5
I'm not sure how I feel about this general idea. It would be helpful if we could provide an explicit demonstration of how the formal Godel limitations apply to our reasoning about consciousness rather than making sweeping statements which may or may not apply. As it stands, I would say I'm pretty much agnostic on the issue.

In any case, we don't need to consider Godel's theorem to provide strong arguments that subjective experience cannot be accounted for by a strictly materialist model of reality. If anything, it seems to be a sort of 'cherry on top' of the standard critique. It certainly would be helpful in establishing the critique if it turns out to be a valid approach, and might even provide an illuminating basis for further theoretical results. But, again, to seriously consider it I'd like to see a more rigorous treatment. Has Penrose gone into much more detail than you have here about how the incompleteness theorem formally applies to the way we describe and think about the brain/consciousness?
 
  • #6
Canute said:
. . . Otherwise it will remain impossible to talk about their implications outside mathematics, and even Goedel speculated on these.

Sleeth - that 'unbroken, continuous' stuff isn't quite what I meant but it doesn't matter. The basic issue is that everything we know suggests that any explanation of everything must leave something out, i.e. there is no such thing as a EoE, and what must be left out in every case seems to be our own awareness.

Sorry if I put my words in your mouth. It is MY opinion :smile: that what mathematical models miss is anything that is indivisible within its functions, and that that indivisibility represents a more general principle. If we "back out" so we can mathematically represent the more general principle's presence in a more general system, and there is still something unrepresentable mathematically, then again we've run into yet a more general principle. Is there an absolute bottom line, where indivisibility may be absolute?

I think in terms of ontologically backing out of manifest reality toward more and more basic systems (i.e. toward raw existence), one might run into consciousness at a pretty basic level, but I suspect that an absolute most basic level of existence is beneath that and not conscious at all. Why?

If the absolute most basic level is conscious, then how do we explain learning, development, conscious evolution? Assuming we humans are specific manifestations of something more generally conscious, then the fact that we can learn demonstrates the more general thing learns. But if it is now learned more than it used to be, then we can assume earlier it was less learned. Tracing that back we come to a stage that is unlearned, which suggests consciousness has a begining.

For that reason I suspect there is a level of existence more basic than consciousness. A raw poteniality which has the potential for consciousness, as well as for everything else that is manifest. In the past I've postulated this raw poteniality is an infinite continuum of non-quantumized "ground state" light. If so, obviously it would be too subtle to be detected by our machinery.
 
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  • #7
hypnagogue said:
I'm not sure how I feel about this general idea. It would be helpful if we could provide an explicit demonstration of how the formal Godel limitations apply to our reasoning about consciousness rather than making sweeping statements which may or may not apply. As it stands, I would say I'm pretty much agnostic on the issue.
I think I can back up what I've said so far.

In any case, we don't need to consider Godel's theorem to provide strong arguments that subjective experience cannot be accounted for by a strictly materialist model of reality. If anything, it seems to be a sort of 'cherry on top' of the standard critique.
I agree with the first sentence but not the second. This is because I see the theorems as postdictions of non-dual philosophies, or predictions made by them from the other point of view. I include in this Buddhism, Advaita, Taoism etc but also Spinoza and Heidegger. Unfortunately I don't have a quick and ready way of supporting that statement but I'll try to do it as necessary.

In a general I go along with Penrose's basic notion that the theorems tell something important about the way we think and about our ontology, or evolutionary cosmology if you like, and that they are not just an epistemilogical quirk.

It certainly would be helpful in establishing the critique if it turns out to be a valid approach, and might even provide an illuminating basis for further theoretical results. But, again, to seriously consider it I'd like to see a more rigorous treatment. Has Penrose gone into much more detail than you have here about how the incompleteness theorem formally applies to the way we describe and think about the brain/consciousness?
Yes he has but I don't know him well enough to sum them up properly. He suuggests that the theorems show that human consciousness emerges from a state that is more fundamental and which lies beyond (or underlies) our everyday states (which are mostly derived from computational reasoning). In other words he suggests that the theorems are consistent with what Buddhists et al have always asserted. That is, if those assertions are true then the provability of the incompleteness theorems follow.

This is because in a non-dual view of reality there is a 'meta-system' for the universe, and for our reasoning about the universe, which must inevitably lie beyond the phsyical universe and beyond systematically logical thought.

Bear with me on this one. I've never discussed it in any depth before and not much work has been done on it. I don't think Penraose's argument quite works but feel a very similar argument does work.

Here are some bits and pieces.

http://www.sm.luth.se/~torkel/eget/godel.html
http://www.stats.uwaterloo.ca/~cgsmall/ontology.html
http://cognet.mit.edu/posters/TUCSON3/Yasue.html [Broken]

BTW if you find yourself in a plenary with him at Tucson (!) perhaps you could ask him if he's considered how his argument relates to the non-dual view of reality and consciousness. I think they got there a few thousand years before him.
 
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  • #8
LW Sleeth said:
Sorry if I put my words in your mouth. It is MY opinion :smile: that what mathematical models miss is anything that is indivisible within its functions, and that that indivisibility represents a more general principle. If we "back out" so we can mathematically represent the more general principle's presence in a more general system, and there is still something unrepresentable mathematically, then again we've run into yet a more general principle. Is there an absolute bottom line, where indivisibility may be absolute?
Not sure I get you but that rings true.

I think in terms of ontologically backing out of manifest reality toward more and more basic systems (i.e. toward raw existence), one might run into consciousness at a pretty basic level, but I suspect that an absolute most basic level of existence is beneath that and not conscious at all. Why?

If the absolute most basic level is conscious, then how do we explain learning, development, conscious evolution? Assuming we humans are specific manifestations of something more generally conscious, then the fact that we can learn demonstrates the more general thing learns. But if it is now learned more than it used to be, then we can assume earlier it was less learned. Tracing that back we come to a stage that is unlearned, which suggests consciousness has a begining.
I agree. Thus Buddhists etc. often assert that consciousness does not exist. (Even though it's also fundamental).

For that reason I suspect there is a level of existence more basic than consciousness. A raw poteniality which has the potential for consciousness, as well as for everything else that is manifest.
Not sure about this because 'consciousness' gets tricky to define at all at this depth. Certainly a state beyond 'self' anyway.

In the past I've postulated this raw poteniality is an infinite continuum of non-quantumized "ground state" light. If so, obviously it would be too subtle to be detected by our machinery.
I would argue that it cannot be detected in principle because if it could it could not be 'ultimate' (it's existence would still be realtive or 'dependent'). We would still need yet another state beyond what we can detect. To link back to Goedel - the existence of the meta-system cannot be proved wityhin the system, only infered from the existence of the system. If the universe is seen as a formal axiomatic system (as per Penrose) then 'ultimate reality' is the meta-system (equivalently so is 'essence').

I prefer to think of it in terms of a perfect condensate of some some sort, one and many at the same time and infinitely peturbable - but it's just a metaphor.

Your point about the 'continuum' that mathematics cannot deal with is what I've occasionaly tried to argue from Zeno's paradoxes of motion, which are not paradoxes if reality is ultimately undifferentiated. But I haven't convinced anyone yet. Most seem to think that the calculus resolves them.

This brings us back to Penrose, who argues for some sort of ideal condensate in the brain, linked somehow to quantum coherence and microtubules - but he loses me on that one.
 
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  • #9
Canute said:
Goedel’s incompleteness theorems show that for any and every formal and systematic explanation of everything (in all possible universes) there must be a meta-system which cannot be included in the explanation. Many people argue that this is consciousness.
Consciousness is the label which we apply to that which labels things.
 
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  • #10
Or to this which labels things. :smile:
 
  • #11
Canute said:
I would argue that it cannot be detected in principle because if it could it could not be 'ultimate' (it's existence would still be realtive or 'dependent'). We would still need yet another state beyond what we can detect. To link back to Goedel - the existence of the meta-system cannot be proved wityhin the system, only infered from the existence of the system. If the universe is seen as a formal axiomatic system (as per Penrose) then 'ultimate reality' is the meta-system (equivalently so is 'essence').

I meant "detected by machinery" but I wonder if consciousness can. If this absolute stuff is what consciousness rises up out of, then might not returning to the originating condition bring awareness of that since one is now "one" with it, yet conscious?

Canute said:
I prefer to think of it in terms of a perfect condensate of some some sort, one and many at the same time and infinitely peturbable - but it's just a metaphor.

I am assuming you are referring to the absolute stuff. Why do you think of it as a condensate? Condensed from what? It seems to me that physical reality is more of the condensate, especially after noticing the universe is flying apart, breaking down, radiating away . . . To me it looks like everything is de-condensing.
 
  • #12
LW Sleeth said:
I meant "detected by machinery" but I wonder if consciousness can. If this absolute stuff is what consciousness rises up out of, then might not returning to the originating condition bring awareness of that since one is now "one" with it, yet conscious?
I don't think there's any 'might' about it.

I am assuming you are referring to the absolute stuff. Why do you think of it as a condensate? Condensed from what? It seems to me that physical reality is more of the condensate, especially after noticing the universe is flying apart, breaking down, radiating away . . . To me it looks like everything is de-condensing.
Well it's only metaphorical. But evolutionary cosmologists treat the early universe as an ideal condensate, and these substances have some curious properties. I'm only a dabbler in these topics but it seems that a condensate can consist of many individual atoms yet be in such a state of coherence that the identity of these individual atoms becomes subsumed into one, the parts become a whole. In this state (at the limits set by the uncertainty principle) the substance is so peturbable that any disturbance would immediately (and 'non-locally') upset the whole thing. Thus such a condensate could not survive long in an undifferentiated state and would inevitably give rise to relative phenomena, aka universes - to unrigorously mix up a few different metaphors. But I'm not suggesting that this is actually the case, it's just interesting to try to match the concepts of physics with those of other world-views.

Your notion of a ground-state of non-quantised light seems a little similar (although I don't understand what you mean by non-quantised here) I have a feeling that there's a lot more to photons that QM currently thinks there is. There are some very good arguments for microphenomenalism.
 
  • #13
Canute said:
Well it's only metaphorical. But evolutionary cosmologists treat the early universe as an ideal condensate, and these substances have some curious properties. I'm only a dabbler in these topics but it seems that a condensate can consist of many individual atoms yet be in such a state of coherence that the identity of these individual atoms becomes subsumed into one, the parts become a whole. In this state (at the limits set by the uncertainty principle) the substance is so peturbable that any disturbance would immediately (and 'non-locally') upset the whole thing. Thus such a condensate could not survive long in an undifferentiated state and would inevitably give rise to relative phenomena, aka universes - to unrigorously mix up a few different metaphors. But I'm not suggesting that this is actually the case, it's just interesting to try to match the concepts of physics with those of other world-views.

Thanks for the explanation.

Canute said:
Your notion of a ground-state of non-quantised light seems a little similar (although I don't understand what you mean by non-quantised here) I have a feeling that there's a lot more to photons that QM currently thinks there is. There are some very good arguments for microphenomenalism.

This idea of a "ground state" is one of my most favorite subjects for contemplation. I know it's not what your thread is about, so maybe I'll start another one to see if anybody wants to theorize about it.
 
  • #14
I think it should be pointed out here that, as far as I know, Penrose is not a dualist. I'll look into this a little more and then come back. From what I recall off the top of my head, he speculates that consciousness cannot be explained by our current understanding of physics, and it is his intuition that a physics of quantum gravity is what will provide the necessary framework. In particular, he postulates that microtubules within neurons (probably because their purpose is unknown, although this is true in all cells, not just neurons) are aligned according to quantum events, and it is this alignment (on a full-brain basis) that will account for consciousness.

He doesn't seem to have provided any reason to believe that this is true. He's just taken one unknown characteristic of neurons and, seemingly on a leap of faith, equated with an unknown physics. It is the contention of most neuroscientists that consciousness can be explained using our current understanding of physics and chemistry.
 
  • #15
LW Sleeth said:
This idea of a "ground state" is one of my most favorite subjects for contemplation. I know it's not what your thread is about, so maybe I'll start another one to see if anybody wants to theorize about it.
I'll look forward to it. However underneath the epistemology the 'ground state' is exactly what this thread was meant to be about.
 
  • #16
loseyourname said:
I think it should be pointed out here that, as far as I know, Penrose is not a dualist. I'll look into this a little more and then come back. From what I recall off the top of my head, he speculates that consciousness cannot be explained by our current understanding of physics, and it is his intuition that a physics of quantum gravity is what will provide the necessary framework. In particular, he postulates that microtubules within neurons (probably because their purpose is unknown, although this is true in all cells, not just neurons) are aligned according to quantum events, and it is this alignment (on a full-brain basis) that will account for consciousness.

He doesn't seem to have provided any reason to believe that this is true. He's just taken one unknown characteristic of neurons and, seemingly on a leap of faith, equated with an unknown physics. It is the contention of most neuroscientists that consciousness can be explained using our current understanding of physics and chemistry.
Two quibbles. Firstly Penrose's idea about quantum coherence is not the issue here. It's his views on the incompleteness theorems that are more interesting. Secondly neuroscience cannot explain consciousness in terms of brain without falsifying idealism. Most (all?) philosophers agree that idealism is unfalsifiable so don't hold your breath for a neuroscientific explanation.
 
  • #17
I don't believe that a neurological explanation for consciousness would falsify idealism. Isn't that a category error?
 
  • #18
selfAdjoint said:
I don't believe that a neurological explanation for consciousness would falsify idealism. Isn't that a category error?
I don't think so. Lyle and Dennett argue that it is, (and so have to argue that consciousness doesn't really exist), and most philosophers argue that to think science can explain it is to make a category error.

However IF neuroscience could get over this problem and show that consciousness is caused by brain then it would falsify idealism, which it isn't supposed to be able to do. I don't know why this issue isn't a bigger one in consciousness studies but it doesn't get mentioned.

I haven't come across a proof that Idealism is unfalsifiable, although it seems to be. I'm wondering if there is a clearly structured proof of its unfalsifiability and whether it is possible to argue that it might be falsifiable.
 
  • #19
Canute said:
I don't think so. Lyle and Dennett argue that it is, (and so have to argue that consciousness doesn't really exist), and most philosophers argue that to think science can explain it is to make a category error.

However IF neuroscience could get over this problem and show that consciousness is caused by brain then it would falsify idealism, which it isn't supposed to be able to do. I don't know why this issue isn't a bigger one in consciousness studies but it doesn't get mentioned.

I haven't come across a proof that Idealism is unfalsifiable, although it seems to be. I'm wondering if there is a clearly structured proof of its unfalsifiability and whether it is possible to argue that it might be falsifiable.

And I don't believe a formal proof would have any force, for just the inverse reason, because that would constrain empirical reality, which "it is not suupposed to be able to do."
 
  • #20
selfAdjoint said:
And I don't believe a formal proof would have any force, for just the inverse reason, because that would constrain empirical reality, which "it is not suupposed to be able to do."
Sorry - don't see what you mean here.
 
  • #21
Canute said:
However IF neuroscience could get over this problem and show that consciousness is caused by brain then it would falsify idealism, which it isn't supposed to be able to do. I don't know why this issue isn't a bigger one in consciousness studies but it doesn't get mentioned.

I haven't come across a proof that Idealism is unfalsifiable, although it seems to be. I'm wondering if there is a clearly structured proof of its unfalsifiability and whether it is possible to argue that it might be falsifiable.

This seems like an interesting idea, but I don't know how you are defining idealism.
 
  • #22
LW Sleeth said:
This seems like an interesting idea, but I don't know how you are defining idealism.
As the doctrine that consciousness is fundamental to existence, or that mental states and representations exist are more fundamental than external phenomena (which are illusory or in some way epiphenomenal on consciousness).

I'm just exploring the argument by the way, to see if it works. I think it probably does.
 
  • #23
Neuroscientists don't concern themselves with this because they don't come to conclusions about reality based on an argument. They produce testable and repeatable results that can actually be seen. They may not prove anything beyond your idealistic doubt, but it's hard to see what can be proven beyond that doubt other than the reality that consciousness exists. If this is all you will accept, then you must reject all science, not just consciousness science.
 
  • #24
loseyourname said:
Neuroscientists don't concern themselves with this because they don't come to conclusions about reality based on an argument. They produce testable and repeatable results that can actually be seen. They may not prove anything beyond your idealistic doubt, but it's hard to see what can be proven beyond that doubt other than the reality that consciousness exists. If this is all you will accept, then you must reject all science, not just consciousness science.

Yes, but you have confirmed exactly what idealist doubt is all about. It seems you give us a choice of limiting ourselves to what can be observed by the senses, or rejecting science. Why must that be so?

Prove to me empirically you love your wife/mother/child/pet . . . whatever. YOU know you experience love, but you can never prove it to others. So clearly there are two sorts of proof: that which convinces others, and that which can only convince oneself.

It seems to me your assumptions are showing. You assume the only valuable "proof" is the kind which proves to others. Some of us think the personal proof is the best way to understand the nature of consciousness.
 
  • #25
The only difference between you and I, that I can see, is that I don't feel a need to "prove" anything about myself to myself. I'm also not too concerned with the way someone else feels. If a person behaves in a loving manner toward another human being, then I will conclude satisfactorily that that person loves that other human being. Given that nothing beyond that can be proven, what's the point in fretting over it? It might make for an interesting mind game, but it's superfluous.
 
  • #26
loseyourname said:
Neuroscientists don't concern themselves with this because they don't come to conclusions about reality based on an argument.
I don't think any neuoroscientist would agree with that.

They produce testable and repeatable results that can actually be seen. They may not prove anything beyond your idealistic doubt, but it's hard to see what can be proven beyond that doubt other than the reality that consciousness exists.
The existence of consciousness cannot be proved, it can only be known.

If this is all you will accept, then you must reject all science, not just consciousness science.
I don't see why. One just has to make a distinction between absolute and relative truths (between what is true and what is provable).
 
  • #27
The existence of consciousness cannot be proved, it can only be known.

This is a statement of faith. So is the statement that idealism can't be falsified. In so far as it makes testable predictions it can be. And if it makes no testable predictions then the development of an empirically supported account of consciousness would of course not falsify it.
 
  • #28
loseyourname said:
The only difference between you and I, that I can see, is that I don't feel a need to "prove" anything about myself to myself. I'm also not too concerned with the way someone else feels. If a person behaves in a loving manner toward another human being, then I will conclude satisfactorily that that person loves that other human being. Given that nothing beyond that can be proven, what's the point in fretting over it? It might make for an interesting mind game, but it's superfluous.

Well, we're fretting over it because this a philosophy forum. Your reason for calling it "superfluous" does show a difference between us since knowing myself is more important to me than knowing anything else. By "self" I don't mean personality stuff or tastes or desires, but rather what it is that makes me conscious, and anything that might make me more conscious.

You say it's nothing but a mind game, but if you find that self knowledge teaches you how to be more happy, content, conscious, wise and yes, loving, then there is practical value to it. If one were to add that to one's empirical skills, then instead of walking around like a computer only able to evaluate appearances, one might acquire a deeper understanding and appreciation of life.
 
  • #29
selfAdjoint said:
The existence of consciousness cannot be proved, it can only be known.

This is a statement of faith.
Surprisingly it's a statement of fact.

So is the statement that idealism can't be falsified.
It has to do with logical deduction, not faith. (Except inasmuch as we need some faith in our system of logic).

In so far as it makes testable predictions it can be. And if it makes no testable predictions then the development of an empirically supported account of consciousness would of course not falsify it.
If idealism it is unfalsifiable then a materialist (third-person) account of consciousness is not possible. This is unavoidable, since a proof that consciousness arises from matter would falsify idealism, in which case it wouldn't be unfalsifiable. I'm not quite sure how you can disagree with this.
 
  • #30
Does your version of idealism make the falsifiable assertion that no materialist(third person) account of consciousness is possible? If it doesn't, then the discovery of such an account doesn't falsify it and your logic fails. If it does, then your statement amounts to nothing more than a faith assertion of what is possible.

1. Logical deduction can only be made from premises, and the best logic in the world will be false if the premises are.
2. Falsifiability is not a logical thing but an empirical one. It is the test of a theory against nature. If nature says no, the theory is false.
 
  • #31
I agree. A wholly physical explanation is not a logical impossibility. It might prove to be inadequate, but it is premature to come to that conclusion now. That would be a lot like saying, ten years after Aristotle had written Physics, that atomic theory would never explain chemical reactions.
 
  • #32
Canute said:
I don't think any neuoroscientist would agree with that.

I will quote Dr. Christof Koch, from The Quest for Consciousness:

Other philosophers assert that they don’t see how the physical brain can give rise to consciousness. Therefore, any scientific program to explore the physical basis of consciousness is doomed to failure. This is an argument from ignorance: The current absence of a compelling argument for a link between the brain and the conscious mind cannot be taken as evidence that such a link does not exist.

I could be wrong, but he doesn't seem too concerned about idealism being unfalsifiable.


The existence of consciousness cannot be proved, it can only be known.

Nothing in science can be "proven" beyond any doubt. We'll just have to accept that a test subject claiming to see "red" is telling the truth and indeed is having the same experience we do when we see "red." It isn't such a huge leap.


I don't see why. One just has to make a distinction between absolute and relative truths (between what is true and what is provable).

Then the only qualm you should have is that any physical theory of consciousness can never be truly "proven." Given that no scientific theory is, I don't see the issue.
 
  • #33
selfAdjoint said:
Does your version of idealism make the falsifiable assertion that no materialist(third person) account of consciousness is possible?
My point is this. If idealism is unfalsifiable then it is logically inevitable that no provable material account of consciousness is possible. This is not a falsifiable assertion. I'm surprised to have to defend it.

1. Logical deduction can only be made from premises, and the best logic in the world will be false if the premises are.
2. Falsifiability is not a logical thing but an empirical one. It is the test of a theory against nature. If nature says no, the theory is false.
I agree with both except that I'd say 2. is an oversimplification. You can't separate empiricism from deductive reasoning.
 
  • #34
loseyourname said:
I agree. A wholly physical explanation is not a logical impossibility.
It is provably a logical impossibility if idealism is provably unfalsifiable.

It might prove to be inadequate, but it is premature to come to that conclusion now. That would be a lot like saying, ten years after Aristotle had written Physics, that atomic theory would never explain chemical reactions.
Yeah, that's the old argument. I suppose I'd make it as well if I was a well paid neuroscientist. I can imagine it still being made in a thousand years time. However logical analysis suggests it does not hold water. This is partly for the reasons that Chalmers and others give, but also because a physical account would falsify idealism. If you can show that idealism is falsifiable then that changes everything, but it appears to be impossible to do that.
 
  • #35
Canute you continue to assert

It is provably a logical impossibility if idealism is provably unfalsifiable.

And I continue to say that if it is unfalsifiable then it makes no testable predictions, and so the development of a materialist (third-person) account of consciousness can not be ruled out by it - or any other empirically supported theory. Unfalsifiable means precisely that it doesn't couple to empirical investigation. I really think you are misunderstanding the term.

Suppose a complete materialistic account of consciousness is achieved. Idealism is not thereby falsified so long as it doesn't make a prediction that such an account is impossible. Supposing it doesn't, then idealist philosophers can continue to assert that all of empirical science is missing the point, just as they have been doing for centuries.

It's only the falsifiable subtheory of idealism that asserts consciousness is beyond materialistic explanation that is falsified by the existence of what it denies.
 

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