Conservation of momentum and laser powered solar sail

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of momentum conservation in the context of a laser-powered solar sail, exploring whether a ship can propel itself by firing a laser at its solar sail. Participants examine the implications of momentum transfer from the laser beam to the ship and the solar sail, questioning the feasibility of such a propulsion method.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant asserts that firing a laser would create a reverse momentum on the ship, suggesting that the momentum from the laser and the solar sail would cancel each other out, preventing movement.
  • Another participant counters that if the laser is reflected off the sail, the ship would indeed move, as the momentum change would not cancel out completely.
  • A different viewpoint suggests that while the ship experiences recoil from firing the laser, the absorption or reflection of the laser by the sail would impart momentum to the sail, allowing for forward movement.
  • Questions arise regarding how reflection affects momentum, with some participants seeking clarification on whether light loses momentum upon reflection and how this impacts the overall system.
  • There is a proposal that a theoretically 100% efficient solar panel could absorb the laser energy and convert it back into a laser, potentially allowing for continuous propulsion.
  • Concerns are raised about the conservation of momentum during reflection, with participants discussing how the momentum of light changes and how this relates to the motion of the sail.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the mechanics of momentum transfer and the feasibility of laser propulsion. There is no consensus on whether the proposed method would work as described, and multiple competing interpretations of the physics involved remain unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in their understanding of the physics involved, particularly regarding the nuances of momentum conservation during reflection and absorption of light. Some assumptions about the efficiency of energy conversion and the mechanics of the system are not fully explored.

  • #31
Drakkith said:
And does the Earth move away from the ball? If so where is the energy coming from?

Yes, the Earth moves away from the ball. The initial kinetic energy and potential energy of the Earth and ball, and also the gravitational potential energy are the only energies in play here(assuming no friction, no heating up etc). And the total mechanical energy is conserved.
 
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  • #32
Drakkith said:
And does the Earth move away from the ball? If so where is the energy coming from?
The idea that the photons / balls have exactly the same energy after reflection is an idealized one. It is based on the assumption that the reflector has infinite mass, so it doesn't begin to move during the interaction.

In reality the ball has a certain finite interaction time during which the Earth will slightly accelerate, so the ball doesn't regain it's full speed. The same is true for a pulse of light, which will be reflected with a Doppler red-shift at the end. But I'm not sure if you can break this down to a single photon being reflected.
 
  • #33
A.T. said:
The idea that the photons / balls have exactly the same energy after reflection is an idealized one. It is based on the assumption that the reflector has infinite mass, so it doesn't begin to move during the interaction.

In reality the ball has a certain finite interaction time during which the Earth will slightly accelerate, so the ball doesn't regain it's full speed. The same is true for a pulse of light, which will be reflected with a Doppler red-shift at the end. But I'm not sure if you can break this down to a single photon being reflected.

Now that makes sense.
 
  • #34
nemesiswes said:
So I think that is right. The ship will move in any case, even if only momentarily.
Try calculating how little the ship will move in the absorbed case. It is essentially nothing. Even in the case of a perfect reflector (and there is no such thing), one is better off dispensing with the mirror. Even a perfect laser beam is not parallel. The beam will have diverged somewhat by the time it hits the mirror, so the reflection will not be as effective as just firing the laser opposite the desired direction of travel. Bottom line: Ditch the mirror. It's a Rube Goldberg device that adds nothing.

Propulsion via a ship-borne laser is a terrible choice for propulsion. Not much oomph and too much mass for the laser and all the associated machinery. The only possible exception is a laser powered by matter / anti-matter annihilation. This is pure sci-fi, however.
 
  • #35
A.T. said:
The same is true for a pulse of light, which will be reflected with a Doppler red-shift at the end. But I'm not sure if you can break this down to a single photon being reflected.

You can. On an earlier thread I calculated the Doppler shift and found that the photon's lost energy matched the mirror's gain in kinetic energy.
 
  • #36
Yeah I figured that it would be more efficient to just fire the laser out the back then use mirrors or some absorbing material. But I just wanted to know if it was possible theoretically, not if it was useful or not and apparently it is possible, just not very useful, lol.
 

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