Constructing Structures with Cardinality W2: A Puzzle in Model Theory

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around constructing a mathematical structure with cardinality \( \omega_2 \) that contains a substructure of cardinality \( \omega \) but lacks a substructure of cardinality \( \omega_1 \). Participants explore the implications of cardinalities in model theory, particularly within the context of ZFC (Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory with the Axiom of Choice).

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses uncertainty about the meaning of \( \omega_2 \) and its intuitive implications, questioning if it represents \( 2^{\aleph_1} \).
  • Another participant clarifies that \( \omega_2 \) refers to \( \aleph_2 \), which may or may not equal \( 2^{\aleph_1} \), indicating a lack of consensus on the terminology.
  • A participant suggests that the power set of an uncountable set could represent a cardinality greater than uncountable sets, though this is not confirmed.
  • One participant outlines a potential structure \( M \) as a well-ordered set of size \( \omega_2 \) and proposes a method to define functions that ensure a countable substructure \( N \) exists while preventing any substructure of size \( \omega_1 \).

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the interpretation of \( \omega_2 \) and its implications. There are multiple competing views regarding the definitions and examples of cardinalities, and the discussion remains unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants express varying levels of familiarity with cardinalities greater than uncountable sets, and there are unresolved assumptions regarding the definitions and properties of these cardinalities.

Bourbaki1123
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I was reading Hodges' Model Theory when I came across this question in the first chapter:

Specify a structure of cardinality w2 which has a substructure of cardinality w but no substructure of cardinality w1. (Working in ZFC)

I am assuming w2 means 2w1 but I'm not sure. I haven't really encountered this cardinality before, and I'm not really sure what would have cardinality greater than an uncountable set or what that means intuitively (if there even is an intuitive explanation, or if it is just a bit of logical symbol pushing).

I know that I could take the reals with the field operations, an ordering symbol and 0,1 as a signature and specify the integers as a substructure of order w, and I could take the complex numbers and specify R as a substructure of order w1 in the same way, but I have no idea what to make of w2 or what might have w2 as its cardinality.
 
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When he says ``cardinality \omega_2'' he means ``\aleph_2'' which may or may not be 2^{\aleph_1}. If he actually says w_2, then I don't know what he means.
 
Bourbaki1123 said:
I'm not really sure what would have cardinality greater than an uncountable set
Its power set?
 
\omega = \aleph _0 is the smallest infinite cardinal, and it's said to be countably infinite. All larger cardinals are said to be uncountably infinite. \omega _1 = \aleph _1 is the next infinite cardinal larger than \omega, and so it's the first uncountable cardinal. \omega _2 = \aleph _2 is the next infinite cardinal; \omega < \omega _1 < \omega _2. Find a structure M (i.e. a set, together with some function(s) and/or relation(s) on that set) such M has a countable substructure (i.e. there's a countable subset of M closed under those functions/relations) but such that there's no substructure of size \omega _1 that's closed under those functions/relations.

Hint: Let M be some well-ordered set of size \omega _2. Let N be the subset of M consisting of the first (w.r.t. the well-ordering) \omega elements of M. Define a bunch of functions on M such that N is closed under those functions (and thus N forms a countable substructure), but such that any subset of M containing any element outside of N has to contain ALL elements of M in order to be closed under all your functions.
 

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