Cops stun gun father trying to save son

[dlgoff]

What do you think?

http://www.guns.com/2013/11/04/cops-stun-gun-father-tries-rush-burning-building-save-3-year-old-son-video/

 

[ZombieFeynman]

I firmly believe a man has the RIGHT to run to his possible death (to try) to save his son.

But the police may have saved his life.

 

[ModusPwnd]

I think the cops are scumbags.

 

[AlephZero]

You are making assumptions about who started the fire. This one started out as a sob story about a family of kids dying in a burning house, until the facts came to light...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allenton_house_fire
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mick_Philpott

(well, it's still a sob story so far as the kids were concerned - but their parents weren't worth risking anybody's life for IMO.)

 

[berkeman]

What do you think?

http://www.guns.com/2013/11/04/cops-stun-gun-father-tries-rush-burning-building-save-3-year-old-son-video/

I firmly believe a man has the RIGHT to run to his possible death (to try) to save his son.

But the police may have saved his life.

We need more info in order to intelligently discuss this. I did some searching, and that extra info doesn't seem to be available in any of the versions of this story.

*1* How involved was the first floor of the structure at the moment the father kicked in the front door? Partially involved? Fully engulfed?

*2* Did the officer Tase the father with the intention of trying to keep him from getting killed?

*3* If the father was indeed arrested, what was the charge?

If the first floor was mainly filled with smoke at the moment the father kicked in the front door, and the baby's room was visible from the door, then it might have been reasonable for him to crawl quickly to grab the baby and exit. But if there were significant flames on the first floor then, letting the father go back inside would basically be a death sentence (plus the baby was probably already dead).

I put out a moderate-size bed fire in a neighbor's home several years ago wearing just street clothes, but I was only able to because the flames were confined to that one room, and the smoke was not all the way to the floor yet in the rest of the house. Going into a home that is more involved than that without wearing full turnouts and an SCBA is basically suicide.

 

[Office_Shredder]

http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/2013/11/01/boy-killed-in-louisiana-mo-house-fire/3358913/

This article makes it sound like he didn't try to enter the house until after the firefighters arrived and decided it was too dangerous to enter with their gear - obviously if that's the case then he was probably just going to kill himself by running into the house.

http://www.connecttristates.com/news/story.aspx?id=966109#.UnfvU-LjUnv

The time difference between the first 911 call and the fire department showing up is 5 minutes.

The Millers ran around to the front of the building and Ryan Miller kicked in the front door as police and firefighters arrived.

Ryan Miller tried to enter the home to get his stepson. Police restrained him and the officer stunned him with a Taser, according to Jenne.

State Fire Marshal Investigator Scott Stoneberger said that a firefighter in full gear attempted to enter the home but the flames were too hot. Firefighters discovered Riley near the doorway to the bedroom from the front living room.

It sounds like the city is saying that police and firefighters showed up at the same time, as he was trying to re-enter the house, and decided at that time it was too dangerous to enter the house. It's not clear if this is how it actually happened or if the words just imply that.

 

[berkeman]

That's a big help, Shredder. So...

*1* The first floor was fully engulfed, and the firefighters (and chief!) onscene told the father he could not go back in.

*2* The officer tased the father when the father was trying to force his way past the firefighters who were trying to put the fire out.

*3* If he was arrested, it might be for interfering with emergency personnel, or something similar. He's alive today because the firefighters would not let him back into the house.

 

[russ_watters]

I would think that unless he was actually interfering with emergency personnel, it would not be legal to use such force to detain him. They may have done him a favor, but it sounds like an illegal one to me.

 

[berkeman]

I would think that unless he was actually interfering with emergency personnel, it would not be legal to use such force to detain him. They may have done him a favor, but it sounds like an illegal one to me.

I agree. Which is why it sounds to me like he was trying to push his way past the firefighters at the front door. Hopefully more detailed accounts of this come out in the next couple of days.

 

[dlgoff]

Thanks for the excellent replies. I started this thread without doing my homework. Just goes to show how the emotional side of a story can overshadow the facts.

 

[dipole]

Even if that's true, what right do the Police have to decide that he's not allowed to try and save his own son (or stepson), even if it means he may end up dying in the process?

Put yourself in his position - how would you feel if it were your son/daughter and some police officer physically prevented you from trying to save him/her? On what possible authority do they rest to make such a decision, that he should not legally be allowed to enter the home?

Now, assuming these are the facts:

1) House was on fire
2) Father/Stepfather wanted to try and rescue son/stepson
3) Police physically prevented him from doing so

then this is complete ( profanity deleted by Moderator ). It doesn't matter if it's irrational, the father was only putting himself at risk.

 

[berkeman]

Even if that's true, what right do the Police have to decide that he's not allowed to try and save his own son (or stepson), even if it means he may end up dying in the process?

Put yourself in his position - how would you feel if it were your son/daughter and some police officer physically prevented you from trying to save him/her? On what possible authority do they rest to make such a decision, that he should not legally be allowed to enter the home?

Now, assuming these are the facts:

1) House was on fire
2) Father/Stepfather wanted to try and rescue son/stepson
3) Police physically prevented him from doing so

then this is complete ( profanity deleted by Moderator ). It doesn't matter if it's irrational, the father was only putting himself at risk.

You are missing the point, and you obviously do not work in emergency services or have experience with very dangerous real-world situations like this.

When emergency service workers are onscene at a fire or other emergency location, it is against the law in many states to interfere with their work. That is for obvious reasons. From the latest news link, it was the firefighters that the father was trying to get through to get into the fully-involved house. The firefighters had their hands full, and the last thing you need is to have one more person that you need to try to rescue. The police were supporting the firefighters, as they do at many emergency scenes.

If there were no firefighters onscene, then I mostly agree that the police would have no reason to try to detain the father, unless they deemed him mentally unfit to care for himself. In that case they can put him on a 72-hour psyche hold, starting with putting him in handcuffs...