Correlating IQ and STEM performance

[gen x]

Is it true that high IQ and STEM are correlated?

 

[QuarkyMeson]

No. IQ scores are meaningless quantities wrt what field or area of study people end up in. It's an imperfect measure used as one component of diagnosing developmental or learning disabilities and even more useless for anything outside of that.

 

[symbolipoint]

Is it true that high IQ and STEM are correlated?

Two necessary parts of the answer:

• Yes.
• Be careful how you think about "IQ", since effort is too often undervalued unjustifiably.

edit:
Even with that, I still do not disagree with @QuarkyMeson .

 

[DEvens]

IQ tests are not perfect, but don't need to be. A test of "puzzle solving" sort of intelligence, if well constructed, will have a good correlation with success in physics.

"Perfect" would mean that every person who scored high on the test became a physicist, and nobody who scored low ever did. That is, of course, not going to happen. Very little is "always." Especially about humans.

There are different kinds of smarts. For example, in physics, inter personal skills are not as important as puzzle solving. They are still important to some extent, since you do need to talk to your prof. And eventually some sort of employer, whether a university or in industry.

Of course there are many caveats and "do you mind if I don't" warnings and such. As mentioned, you have to be prepared to do the work. There is a lot of physics, and it depends on a lot of math. And doing the work usually requires that you have at least some amount of desire to do so. You have to like the work to some extent. Otherwise you will avoid it.

 

[DaveE]

Is it true that high IQ and STEM are correlated?

What an odd question. Perhaps you could be more specific?

1) STEM is not a measurement. Perhaps you need a performance metric? Or are you just counting some (undefined) count of participation? What do you think STEM is and how is it measured?

2) Yes, many things can have some correlation with STEM; birth zip code, sex, eye color, etc. That doesn't mean the correlation is good (high correlation coefficient), and even if it was, that doesn't necessarily tell you useful information. For example, the well know correlation between ice cream sales and shark bites.

 

[DaveE]

Anyway, Yes. But I wouldn't let that stop anyone. There are many other factors involved.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/222403422_Intelligence_and_Educational_Achievement

 

[symbolipoint]

1) STEM is not a measurement. Perhaps you need a performance metric? Or are you just counting some (undefined) count of participation? What do you think STEM is and how is it measured?

Young People! And sometimes, less sophisticated middle age and old people!

 

[symbolipoint]

Anyway, Yes. But I wouldn't let that stop anyone. There are many other factors involved.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/222403422_Intelligence_and_Educational_Achievement

Not yet read the article, but the ability to earn a degree in a "Difficult" subject. or having earned an advanced degree in any of S.T.E.M. means only (1) Did well academically and received some help, or (2) was skillful at the parts and processes to achieve the advanced degree.

Once you later have the chance to work with some of them, you may wonder HOW? Their great talent and imagination may seem very lacking.

 

[DaveE]

Young People! And sometimes, less sophisticated middle age and old people!

I suspect it's a disconnect between what the physics community thinks "correlation" actually means versus the general public. It's not about age, it's about vocabulary and education. Better questions get better answers. In the context of a vague question, a vague understanding of the terms isn't unexpected. I come across that a lot and I find it quite confusing; how to answer an ambiguous question.

 

[jedishrfu]

My understanding of things was that IQ tests are imperfect for a number of reasons. One being the background of the person taking it as questions can have an implicit bias for one culture over another.

The popular tests for college entry were IQ tests recast for college entrance and were meant to gauge how well an incoming student would do as a freshman and nothing more.

There was a story of the Kpelle people of Liberia who were asked to sort everyday items into categories. The researchers expected them to sort food into food and utensils into tools. However, they thought in terms of function and placed the potato knife next to the potato.

This kind of reasoning can happen in a test, and the test taker would get it wrong.

 

[ohwilleke]

My guess is that the OP is getting at something along the lines of the analysis of this paper (discussed further by one of the authors at the link below):

Non-linear Psychometric Thresholds for Physics and Mathematics

Stephen D.H. Hsu, James Schombert

We analyze 5 years of student records at the University of Oregon to estimate the probability of success (as defined by superior undergraduate record; sufficient for admission to graduate school) in Physics and Mathematics as a function of SAT-M score. We find evidence of a non-linear threshold: below SAT-M score of roughly 600, the probability of success is very low. Interestingly, no similar threshold exists in other majors, such as Sociology, History, English or Biology, whether on SAT combined, SAT-R or SAT-M. Our findings have significant implications for the demographic makeup of graduate populations in mathematically intensive subjects, given the current distribution of SAT-M scores.

https://infoproc.blogspot.com/2010/05/psychometric-thresholds-for-physics-and.html

which determined that in physics and mathematics, students who had below a standardized test threshold were almost sure to fail in their major, while in most disciplines in college, there is no such threshold, and a hard working student with low standardized test scores has some reasonable probability of graduating.

Standardized test scores, in turn, are closely correlated with IQ.

 

[sbrothy]

I think I've answered another version of this kind of question. An IQ test measures how good you are at solving IQ tests. Period. Intelligence comes in many variants. Musical, mathemathical, being able to tie your shoelaces, and a ton of others.

Just my 2 cents.

EDIT: and I realize that's pretty hard said. So don't take me too literally.

EDIT2: What I meatn with the shoelace comment is that th Danish scientist https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holger_Bech_Nielsen is generally considered pretty smart, was shown on Danish TV while his wife tied his butterfly as he was goinf to receive an order from the Danish queen. Now I'm not saying he can't do it himself, but he's somewhere on the spectrum for sure. So, do you want to be able to grasp string theory or tie your own shoelaces? You decide.

 

[gmax137]

My thought was, as a young person comes up in grade school and through high school, the "smart kids" are pushed into the sciences - either by their parents / teachers or by themselves. I think this might have been even more true back in the 1950s and 1960s when the public's image of "smart, really really smart" was physicists like Einstein or rocket scientists like von Braun.

 

[sbrothy]

My thought was, as a young person comes up in grade school and through high school, the "smart kids" are pushed into the sciences - either by their parents / teachers or by themselves. I think this might have been even more true back in the 1950s and 1960s when the public's image of "smart, really really smart" was physicists like Einstein or rocket scientists like von Braun.

I don't think you can suppress geniuses like Einstein, von Braun or Gauss. They'll make themselves noticed.

 

[A.T.]

Is it true that high IQ and STEM are correlated?

If the IQ test is correlated with STEM metrics, sure!

 

[DaveE]

I don't think you can suppress geniuses like Einstein, von Braun or Gauss. They'll make themselves noticed.

How would you know? You never see the counterfactual. Maybe one of your neighbors is a genius but is lazy and content.

I've worked with some truly brilliant people at the laser company, you'll never see their names in the news. They're not trying to win a Nobel prize, they're on a different path.

 

[bhobba]

The average IQ of physics/math graduates is at the very superior, perhaps even genius, level (130+). But gets lower for other STEM majors - 113 for psychology.

https://www.randalolson.com/2014/06/25/average-iq-of-students-by-college-major-and-gender-ratio/

Here in Aus, one aim is for 80% to graduate from university (and I personally agree with it, believing it could be integrated with HS, but that is another story), which is about the percentage with average IQ or above. So it looks achievable - just.

Thats average BTW. If, like me, you love math (always have), don't worry about IQ - go for it. As the great Jaime Escalante said, all you need is ganas (desire).

Thanks
Bill

 

[sbrothy]

How would you know? You never see the counterfactual. Maybe one of your neighbors is a genius but is lazy and content.

I've worked with some truly brilliant people at the laser company, you'll never see their names in the news. They're not trying to win a Nobel prize, they're on a different path.

I see your point. A genius might be your my local mailman.

 

[sbrothy]

I've been put through 2 IQ tests. One for the military and one for employment at Mærsk. I've never been told the results but I didn't "fail" any of them. Whatever that means.

 

[gmax137]

Here in Aus, one aim is for 80% to graduate from university ..., which is about the percentage with average IQ or above.

I must be missing something here. If IQ follows a normal distribution wouldn't 50% be average or above (not 80%)?

I've been put through 2 IQ tests. One for the military and one for employment at Mærsk. I've never been told the results but I didn't "fail" any of them. Whatever that means.

I know this is a tangent, but have you taken the MMPI* test? That's a doozy. I've taken it as part of getting unescorted access in nuclear power facilities. They don't provide the detailed results from this test either. The only results are "Yes," "No," and "Requires evaluation by a shrink." I have gotten two of the three...

*Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory

 

[WWGD]

My understanding of things was that IQ tests are imperfect for a number of reasons. One being the background of the person taking it as questions can have an implicit bias for one culture over another.

The popular tests for college entry were IQ tests recast for college entrance and were meant to gauge how well an incoming student would do as a freshman and nothing more.

There was a story of the Kpelle people of Liberia who were asked to sort everyday items into categories. The researchers expected them to sort food into food and utensils into tools. However, they thought in terms of function and placed the potato knife next to the potato.

This kind of reasoning can happen in a test, and the test taker would get it wrong.

I would assume the tests are adapted to the culture of the taker. ( Edit)Then the test administered in, say, Uganda, would be different than the one taken in the US.

 

[sbrothy]

I must be missing something here. If IQ follows a normal distribution wouldn't 50% be average or above (not 80%)?



I know this is a tangent, but have you taken the MMPI* test? That's a doozy. I've taken it as part of getting unescorted access in nuclear power facilities. They don't provide the detailed results from this test either. The only results are "Yes," "No," and "Requires evaluation by a shrink." I have gotten two of the three...

*Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory

I'll certainly have a look. Thank you.

 

[sbrothy]

I must be missing something here. If IQ follows a normal distribution wouldn't 50% be average or above (not 80%)?



I know this is a tangent, but have you taken the MMPI* test? That's a doozy. I've taken it as part of getting unescorted access in nuclear power facilities. They don't provide the detailed results from this test either. The only results are "Yes," "No," and "Requires evaluation by a shrink." I have gotten two of the three...

*Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory

Well, I can certainly see, from a quick look, that not everyone is allowed [to roam around unescorted] inside a nuclear facility . Rightly so I guess.

I've posted this before but it's still an interesting read: guided tour of the nuclear reactor complex at Torness on the Scottish coast.

EDIT: But yeah, sorry. I digress. I'll stop here.

 

[WWGD]

I'll certainly have a look. Thank you.

The average IQ is taken to be 100, the SD is 15; I guess from historical data, Then the 68-95-99% applies.

 

[sbrothy]

The average IQ is taken to be 100, the SD is 15; I guess from historical data, Then the 68-95-99% applies.

Sounds reasonable. I managed to complete both but if I got it all correct I cannot say, as mentioned.

EDIT: I doubt it. I'm hardly a genius.