A Cosmic Tidal Force: Measuring CTF With Strain Gauge

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  • #51
Of course an experiment would settle our disagreement ..😉
 
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  • #52
PAllen said:
Of course an experiment would settle our disagreement ..😉
Yes, all we need is a large enough void and a long enough time...
 
  • #53
PeterDonis said:
Yes, all we need is a large enough void and a long enough time...
Too bad Joe’s Galactic Voids was a cousin of Theranos …
 
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  • #54
PeterDonis said:
The simplest way I can see to do that would be to have a comoving lab at the center and two test objects equidistant from it in opposite directions, all in a cosmic void with no other mass present, and measure the rate of change of round-trip light travel time between the lab and each of the objects.
Agreed, but then we have a lab with non-negligible mass in the middle. Why not make the two labs (that I had in my last post) two nano-satellites as the test objects and let them do the measurements. They can have the added advantage of tiny boosters to accurately find the 'critical distance'.

Nothing in the real world of experimental science will be perfect, but I like to think like an engineer: "close enough for all practical purposes". :wink:
 
  • #55
Jorrie said:
then we have a lab with non-negligible mass in the middle
No, the lab can be a test object as well. It doesn't have to have non-negligible mass in order to be comoving and be able to send and receive light signals. The object is to have the only non-negligible stress-energy in the entire scenario be dark energy.

Jorrie said:
Why not make the two labs (that I had in my last post) two nano-satellites as the test objects and let them do the measurements.
You could, but it might also be helpful to have a comoving test object in between them to provide a reference (the comoving lab in the middle would be in free fall the whole time, whereas the two nano-satellites at the end points would have to have nonzero proper acceleration in order to adjust their motion to keep the round-trip light travel times constant).
 
  • #56
Let's clarify the range of agreement vs. disagreement.

I think we all agree with the following qualitative description:

- If you magically had a universe actually described at all scales by a realistic FLRW solution, then introduced two 1 kg balls a light year apart at mutual rest per constant Fermi-Normal distance (somehow), having equal and opposite peculiar velocity relative to colocated comoving world lines (towards each other - necessary for the constant distance) , and let the balls go, they would behave as test objects and slowly separate (per normal distance).

- Close together (e.g. a meter apart) they simply behave effectively as they would in a vacuum and slowly come together.

- There would exist a balance point where they would naturally (though unstably) remain mutually stationary.

What we disagree on is to what degree you can just add separately computed forces to approximate where the balance point would be versus necessarily needing a more complex treatment.
 
  • #57
PAllen said:
I think we all agree with the following qualitative description:

- If you magically had a universe actually described at all scales by a realistic FLRW solution, then introduced two 1 kg balls a light year apart at mutual rest per constant Fermi-Normal distance (somehow), having equal and opposite peculiar velocity relative to colocated comoving world lines (towards each other - necessary for the constant distance) , and let the balls go, they would behave as test objects and slowly separate (per normal distance).

- Close together (e.g. a meter apart) they simply behave effectively as they would in a vacuum and slowly come together.

- There would exist a balance point where they would naturally (though unstably) remain mutually stationary.
Yes, I agree with this qualitative description. But let me give a somewhat different qualitative description:

1. If you magically had a universe described at all scales by a realistic FRW solution that is the same as our current best-fit Lambda CDM model, in which the expansion is currently accelerating, then two idealized test objects magically placed at mutual rest per constant Fermi-Normal distance and released into free fall at any separation whatever will start moving apart.

2. If we recognize that there ain't no such thing as an exact idealized test object, that every object has some nonzero stress-energy, then we must recognize that for any pair of real objects, such as real 1 kg balls made of real matter, there will be some separations at which the effect of their own stress-energy will outweigh the effect of the "cosmic fluid" in the magical universe described above, and they will start moving towards each other if magically placed at mutual rest per constant Fermi-Normal distance and released into free fall.

3. Therefore, for any pair of real objects, since there are two possible regimes as a function of separation--the regime where they start moving apart, and the regime where they start moving towards each other--there must be a boundary between them, i.e., a separation at which they will (unstably) remain mutually stationary.

PAllen said:
What we disagree on is to what degree you can just add separately computed forces to approximate where the balance point would be versus necessarily needing a more complex treatment.
No. What we disagree on (if "disagree" is even the right word, since I think both of the qualitative descriptions given above are correct, and I have already agreed in previous posts that nonlinearity is not significant and that the scenario as you posed it is within the domain of the weak field approximation) is that I have been emphasizing the difference between my 1. and my 2. above, which is not included at all in your qualitative description. Whether one thinks that is something worth emphasizing will depend on exactly why one is formulating the scenario. If one is interested in measuring the properties of the "cosmic fluid", then it seems to me that one would want to do it using test objects, or something as close to that as possible, and that including objects that you explicitly treat as not being test objects and contributing non-negligible stress energy kind of defeats the purpose.
 
  • #58
PAllen said:
What we disagree on is to what degree you can just add separately computed forces to approximate where the balance point would be versus necessarily needing a more complex treatment.
PeterDonis said:
I have already agreed in previous posts that nonlinearity is not significant and that the scenario as you posed it is within the domain of the weak field approximation
Having said all that, I am still working on updating and rechecking my numbers, to address a nagging sensation I have that there is still an additional effect of the 1 kg balls not being treated as test objects that is not negligible. I might be mistaken. I will post an update when I have one.
 
  • #59
Ok, here is an updated mathematical treatment. I'm going to treat a scenario that somewhat combines scenarios proposed by @Jorrie and @PAllen. The analysis that follows, btw, will show that some of my previous posts were incorrect in some respects.

First, let's verify that the weak field approximation is ok. The simplest way to check is to verify that the maximum possible values of all terms in the metric that would make it different from the flat Minkowski metric are small (absolute value much less than ##1##). The two terms of interest are ##2M / r##, where ##M## is the mass of the "marbles" we are going to use as our experimental objects, and ##K r^2##, where ##K## is an appropriate constant related to dark energy. (In the notations of previous posts, this constant would be ##\Lambda / 3##, where ##\Lambda## is the cosmological constant, or ##8 \pi \rho / 3##, where ##\rho## is the dark energy density. The small numerical factors here are not important for the order of magnitude analysis we are about to do.)

The maximum value of ##2M / r##, if we assume ##M## is 1 kg, will be the one corresponding to the minimum value of ##r##, i.e., the minimum distance apart that our experimental objects will be. Let's assume that is 1 meter; i.e., we are only going to test separations of 1 meter or larger. Then we have ##2 M / r = 2 \times 7.42 \times 10^{-28} / 1##, which is obviously small. (In fact we could make ##r## as small as the size of an atomic nucleus, about ##10^{-15}## meters, and still have ##2M / r## be small. So we have no issue here.)

The maximum value of ##K r^2## will be the one corresponding to the maximum distance apart that our experimental objects will be. Let's assume that is 1 light year; i.e., we are only going to test separations of 1 light year or smaller. Then we have ##K r^2 = (8 \pi / 3) \times 4.92 \times 10^{-54} \times ( 9.30 \times 10^{15} )^2##, which is also obviously small. So we are quite justified in using the weak field approximation.

Before writing down the weak field approximation to the metric, we want to first make a few adjustments to our coordinates. First, we will only consider motion along a single line, so we can eliminate angular coordinates and we can use ##x## instead of ##r## for our coordinate along the line. Second, we will put a "lab" at the point ##x = 0##, which is defined to be equidistant between our two experimental objects; the "lab" is always in free fall and serves as a "comoving" reference point. Third, we start our two experimental objects, which are each "marbles" with mass ##M##, at coordinates ##x = D## and ##x = -D##, and with zero coordinate velocity. We then seek the conditions under which the objects, in free fall, will remain at their starting coordinates.

With these stipulations, the weak field approximation to the metric then is:

$$
ds^2 = - \left( 1 - \frac{2M}{D - x} - \frac{2M}{D + x} - K x^2 \right) dt^2 + \frac{1}{1 - \frac{2M}{D - x} - \frac{2M}{D + x} - K x^2} dx^2
$$

Note that the only use we are actually making of the weak field approximation is to allow us to add both of the ##2M / r## terms together without any nonlinear effects.

The relevant equation for evaluating the motion of our experimental objects is the geodesic equation for the ##x## component of 4-velocity. That equation is:

$$
\frac{d U^x}{d \tau} + \Gamma^x{}_{\mu \nu} U^\mu U^\nu = 0
$$

We are looking for the conditions that will give us ##U^x = 0## for all ##\tau## for the worldlines of our experimental objects, which means we want ##d U^x / d\tau = 0## at the values of ##x## where our experimental objects are. That means the second term above must vanish. Since the only nonzero 4-velocity component under these conditions is ##U^t##, for the second term to vanish means we must have ##\Gamma^x{}_{tt} = 0##. This gives (including only nonzero terms, of which there is only one since our metric is diagonal and its components are only functions of ##x##):

$$
\Gamma^x{}_{tt} = 0 = - \frac{1}{2} g^{xx} g_{tt,x}
$$

which in turn gives, formally,

$$
\left( 1 - \frac{2M}{D - x} - \frac{2M}{D + x} - K x^2 \right) \left( \frac{M}{\left( D + x \right)^2} - \frac{M}{\left( D - x \right)^2} - K x \right) = 0
$$

This will be zero if the factor inside the second parentheses is zero (the factor inside the first parentheses will always be close to ##1## when the weak field approximation is valid, so we don't need to consider that one).

I say "formally" because, as noted above, we want this to hold at the values of ##x## where our objects are, i.e., ##x = D## and ##x = - D##, but our expression is obviously singular there. The hand-wavy non-rigorous way we will handle this is by simply ignoring the singular terms (this amounts to assuming that each experimental object does not respond to its own self-field but only to the dark energy and the field of the other experimental object). Doing this, the evaluations at ##x = D## and ##x = - D## both give the same condition:

$$
\frac{M}{4 D^2} = K D
$$

or, using ##K = 8 \pi \rho / 3##,

$$
D = \left( \frac{M}{4 K} \right)^{\frac{1}{3}} = \left( \frac{3 M}{32 \pi \rho} \right)^{\frac{1}{3}}
$$

Plugging in numbers gives ##D = 2.62 \times 10^8## meters.

Now, looking at the condition above, it certainly looks like we are just equating the gravitational force (strictly speaking, the acceleration) between the two balls at distance ##2D## with the "dark energy force" (or acceleration). (Although note that the "distance" in the dark energy force term is just ##D##, not ##2 D##. Why isn't it ##2 D##? I'll leave that possible issue for another discussion.)

(Note, however, that there is a subtlety here. What is ##D##? Well, it's the ##x## coordinate of the balls. But the ##x## coordinate is not the same as proper distance. The ##g_{rr}## term in the metric is not ##1##. So the proper distance between the balls will not be exactly ##2 D##, and the Newtonian gravitational acceleration between the balls will not be exactly the same as ##M / (2D)^2##. I might have more to say about this in a future post.)

In a follow-up post I'lll compare the above with the case where we use idealized test objects and the only nonzero stress-energy is dark energy.
 
  • #60
This is a follow-up to post #59 to compare the scenario analyzed there with a scenario where we use idealized test objects.

We have two choices about how to set up this scenario. We retain the "lab" in the center that is comoving, in free fall, and serves as a reference, and where our ##x## coordinate is zero. At coordinates ##x = D## and ##x = - D## we have idealized test objects that have zero stress-energy and have no effect on the spacetime geometry. The choice we have is whether to let these objects fall freely (after being started out at rest relative to the "lab", i.e., not comoving) and measure the effect of dark energy by their coordinate acceleration, or whether to hold them at a constant ##x## and measure the effect of dark energy by the proper acceleration required to do that.

Either way, the key quantity will be the connection coefficient ##\Gamma^x{}_{tt}##. Our expression for that from the previous post was:

$$
\Gamma^x{}_{tt} = \left( 1 - \frac{2M}{D - x} - \frac{2M}{D + x} - K x^2 \right) \left( \frac{M}{\left( D + x \right)^2} - \frac{M}{\left( D - x \right)^2} - K x \right)
$$

In the scenario we are now discussing, the only difference is that ##M = 0##, so we now have:

$$
\Gamma^x{}_{tt} = \left( 1 - K x^2 \right) \left( - K x \right)
$$

So how different are these?

At the value of ##D## where equilibrium occurs in the previous scenario in post #59, obviously these two aren't the same, since for the ##M \neq 0## case we have ##\Gamma^x{}_{tt} = 0## there. So one obvious measure of difference is the value of ##\Gamma^x{}_{tt}## for the ##M = 0## case at that value of ##D##. Plugging in numbers gives ##\Gamma^x{}_{tt} = - 1.08 \times 10^{-44}## inverse meters.

Another possible comparison is to note the extra factor ##\left( 1 - K x^2 \right)## in the above formula for ##\Gamma^x{}_{tt}## that multiplies what we expect to be the "dark energy force" at distance ##D##, namely ##K D##, as discussed in post #59. This factor differs from ##1## by only about 3 parts in ##10^{36}##, so its effect is extremely negligible. Also, one might observe that, if we tried to actually calculate the "Newtonian force" between the two "marbles" in post #59 and compare it with the "dark energy force", we would find a similar factor arising in both, just with the ##M## dependent terms added back in; but since the same factor would appear in both forces, it would cancel out when we equated them in order to find the equilibrium condition.

This does, however, suggest a third comparison: compare the factors with and without the ##M## dependent terms. This gives, if we take the equilibrium value of ##D## and adopt the same policy we used in post #59 of ignoring singular terms:

$$
1 - \frac{M}{D} - K D^2 = 1 - 5.661 \times 10^{-36}
$$

as compared with

$$
1 - K D^2 = 1 - 2.832 \times 10^{-36}
$$

So ##M / D## and ##K D^2## are approximately equal (they differ by about 1 part in 1000), meaning that the correction factor differs from ##1## by about twice as much in the ##M \neq 0## scenario as compared with the ##M = 0## (idealized test objects) scenario. Of course this still leaves the correction factor extremely negligible for these scenarios. (Note that this factor arises from ##g^{rr}##, so it is also related to the correction factor for proper distance as compared with coordinate distance, which was mentioned in post #59. So this factor being extremely negligible at least strongly suggests that the correction to proper distance from coordinate distance will also be negligible.)

I think this has gotten rid of the nagging feeling I mentioned in an earlier post. There is an "in principle" effect of the non-negligible masses of the "marbles" in the post #59 scenario that makes the spacetime geometry and the acceleration different; but running the numbers for the cases discussed in this thread shows that the effect in practice is extremely negligible. It might not be negligible for much larger distances, but this would also require much larger masses, going up as the cube of the distance. Exploring that a bit, for a distance of 1 light year, the numbers would look like this:

##D = 9.30 \times 10^{15}##

##M = 3.31 \times 10^{-5}## (this is about ##5 \times 10^{22}## kg, a little short of the mass of the Moon)

##K D = 3.83 \times 10^{-37}##

##1 - \frac{M}{D} - K D^2 = 1 - 7.123 \times 10^{-21}##

##1 - K D^2 = 1 - 3.560 \times 10^{-21}##

The corrections are still negligible, but you can see that we still have ##M / D## and ##K D^2## approximately equal. Let's try a distance of a million light years:

##D = 9.30 \times 10^{21}##

##M = 3.31 \times 10^{14}## (this is about ##5 \times 10^{40}## kg, or about 10 billion solar masses, the mass of a small galaxy)

##K D = 3.83 \times 10^{-31}##

##1 - \frac{M}{D} - K D^2 = 1 - 7.123 \times 10^{-9}##

##1 - K D^2 = 1 - 3.560 \times 10^{-9}##

This is starting to get into the range where the correction factors might be measurable.
 
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  • #61
Absolutely cool thanks! Just a question, do you assume that the 'lab' at x=0 has negligible mass, or does it not feature in the final analysis?
 
  • #62
Jorrie said:
do you assume that the 'lab' at x=0 has negligible mass
Yes.
 
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