Could ancient civilizations have existed before those we know of?

[bostonnew]

Hi all,

Do you think it's possible that some civilizations existed perhaps 5-10,000 years ago that had literacy, mathematics, philosophy, perhaps democracy and such? All those things that ancient Greece get a lot of credit for.

I discussed this with my friend who responded that if they were that advanced they would also have had advance architecture which we would find evidence of today. But I think that would depend on the material they used to built with. Maybe that has all eroded over time.

In other words, is it possible that we have had philosophers and scientists much greater than Plato and Aristotle who wrote about algebra, and perhaps even calculus, but we just haven't found the evidence?

 

[Evo]

Hi all,

Do you think it's possible that some civilizations existed perhaps 5-10,000 years ago that had literacy, mathematics, philosophy, perhaps democracy and such? All those things that ancient Greece get a lot of credit for.

I discussed this with my friend who responded that if they were that advanced they would also have had advance architecture which we would find evidence of today. But I think that would depend on the material they used to built with. Maybe that has all eroded over time.

In other words, is it possible that we have had philosophers and scientists much greater than Plato and Aristotle who wrote about algebra, and perhaps even calculus, but we just haven't found the evidence?

The Great Pyramid at Giza is believed to have been completed about 4,600 years ago.

 

[bostonnew]

Yes. But my point is that we are well aware that an Egyptian civilization existed at that point. I'm wondering if it's possible that civilizations have existed that we are not aware of at all.

 

[russ_watters]

So there's two different questions there:

1. "Could ancient civilizations have existed before those we know of?" Certainly, yes.
2. "Could advanced, ancient civilizations have existed that we don't know of?" Yes, though not as likely and depends on what you mean by "advanced".

 

[SW VandeCarr]

Excavations at the Jericho site in Israel have revealed an 8 meter tower and walls up to 4 meters thick possibly dating from 9,000-10,000 years ago. It's generally considered to be the oldest city in the world, although there is some question as to the actual age of the oldest known structures.

http://www.bibleplaces.com/jericho.htm

 

[Ryan_m_b]

IIRC ancient Sumer is regarded as being the oldest recorded civilisation. However it really depends on what you mean by "civilisation". There have been hunter gather societies for tens of thousands of years that have occasionally built settlements and the like.

As for science that was discovered independently possibly. There have been cases where some ancient society was credited with a discovery that another ancient society already knew but to generate the kind of philosophers and scientists that were seen in ancient Arab and Greek societies requires a civilisation that allows some of the people time to just sit around and learn.

 

[Dotini]

I'm sure many of you have heard of the important discoveries at Gobekli Tepe?

Here is an audio interview of science writer Charles C Mann, who has twice visited the dig at the 11,500 year old monument. He was able to spend a good deal of time with the archaeologist Klaus Schmidt, in charge of the dig for many years, and reveals heretofore unpublished insights into its even greater antiquity and achievements.

Foremost of these is evidence of a proto-written language. This is found among the finely carved images, mainly animals, but also symbols such as waves and crescents found upon the huge rings of stone pillars. These are thought to work mnemonically, and may collectively constitute a language. They are studying it.

http://www.electricpolitics.com/podcast/2011/06/gbekli_tepe_1.html

(This is a long interview. The part under discussion is found about 45% the way through)

Respectfully submitted,
Steve

 

[SW VandeCarr]

Foremost of these is evidence of a proto-written language. This is found among the finely carved images, mainly animals, but also symbols such as waves and crescents found upon the huge rings of stone pillars. These are thought to work mnemonically, and may collectively constitute a language. They are studying it.

http://www.electricpolitics.com/podcast/2011/06/gbekli_tepe_1.html

(This is a long interview. The part under discussion is found about 45% the way through)

Respectfully submitted,
Steve

It seems that this was a ceremonial site, not a functioning city. It was some distance from a water supply according to your link. Jericho appears to have been a true urban center. There was and is a reliable spring there that has sustained habitation since Neolithic times.

Nevertheless this is a remarkable discovery, particularly the evidence of a possible written language. As far as I know, Sumerian cuneiform is currently thought to be the oldest writing (ca 3500 BCE).

 

[Dotini]

Excavations at the Jericho site in Israel have revealed an 8 meter tower and walls up to 4 meters thick possibly dating from 9,000-10,000 years ago. It's generally considered to be the oldest city in the world, although there is some question as to the actual age of the oldest known structures.

http://www.bibleplaces.com/jericho.htm

Yes! The Tower of Jericho. With its base diameter of 8 meters, and even with the uncut rubble masonry lower portion, I imagine this tower might have once stood over 25 meters tall, if Irish round towers are anything to go by. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_round_tower

The ditch (moat?) around Jericho was impressive too: 8.2m x 2.7m x 600m excavated from the solid bedrock. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_of_Jericho


Respectfully submitted,
Steve

 

[LeroyLaRey]

bummer, I just spent an hour writing up a pretty good post (you should have seen it) meanwhile I guess my session ended and I had to log in again, the post never showed up.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

bummer, I just spent an hour writing up a pretty good post (you should have seen it) meanwhile I guess my session ended and I had to log in again, the post never showed up.

It's a bummer when that happens. Write it again :)

 

[tiny-tim]

… my friend who responded that if they were that advanced they would also have had advance architecture which we would find evidence of today. But I think that would depend on the material they used to built with. Maybe that has all eroded over time.

maybe it was all in Antarctica, and it's now buried under miles of ice

 

[Andre]

Or maybe just off the coast of Cuba?





https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=38797

 

[r8chard]

The basic problem with this discussion is the definition of terms.

To be accurate use these words as the ancients conceived them.

Civilized meant you were a slave owner
Democracy was an association of slave owners.
Sometimes the slaves were owned by individuals, sometimes by the State or other corporate body.
Barbarians were those neighboring tribes, your "civilized" society has not yet enslaved.

Being a "civilized" male, provided one with the leisure time to develop the arts and
sciences. The technology they developed was limited to theoretical amusements, toys,
sometimes State engineering projects or temporary military use.

We must not confuse using machines with being civilized. We are barbarians who use machines. We settled that argument at Antietam, Vicksburg, Atlanta and Gettysburg.
When the armies of the "civilized" Americans were defeated.

The ancient civilizations that we acknowledge, all left unmistakable scars in their mines and roadways and other sources of the raw materials they consumed. Just as our modern society has and is doing to the geography. Did you think those railway cuts, strip mines, tunnels, highways, will just evaporate after us?

 

[WhoWee]

The ancient civilizations that we acknowledge, all left unmistakable scars in their mines and roadways and other sources of the raw materials they consumed. Just as our modern society has and is doing to the geography. Did you think those railway cuts, strip mines, tunnels, highways, will just evaporate after us?

Just as we currently live amongst ruins in our oldest cities - is it not possible the "ancient civilizations that we acknowledge" did the same thing and we can't tell the difference?

 

[Evo]

Just as we currently live amongst ruins in our oldest cities - is it not possible the "ancient civilizations that we acknowledge" did the same thing and we can't tell the difference?

Old civilizations tended to build on top of older civilizations, burying them underneath.

 

[WhoWee]

Old civilizations tended to build on top of older civilizations, burying them underneath.

That's my point - perhaps building materials were recycled or ruins covered and remain undetected by us.

 

[dimensionless]

Democracy? Yes. People don't like to constantly fight with each other. Literacy? No. Written language has only been invented a few times. I suppose there glyphs though, so maybe some type of writing, but probably not too complex. Mathematics? I would not be surprised if neanderthals had commerce, etc. and had some kind of number system. After all, some dogs can count. Philosophy? Maybe. What's exactly is philosophy? Calculus? I would be surprised. It's just so abstract, even for someone living in a state of the art grass hut.

 

[dimensionless]

That's my point - perhaps building materials were recycled or ruins covered and remain undetected by us.

And stone masonry is more trouble than it's worth.

 

[WhoWee]

And stone masonry is more trouble than it's worth.

It's clearly easier to clean a block or re-shape it than to cut another.

 

[Evo]

That's my point - perhaps building materials were recycled or ruins covered and remain undetected by us.

Exactly.

 

[r8chard]

My point is the mines, the quarries, roadways or canal systems cut through hills, none of these disappear just because no one is using them. If you care to make the effort go to any archeological website, you can get the mapped coordinates and if you cannot afford to go in person, you can use one of the satellite systems to actually view.

I would advise that you first look at modern mining and quarry operations and modern ruins, such as Detroit and Chernobyl. Then go looking for the ancient works.
You will be surprised at how much is NOT been covered up by modern construction. A good example would be ancient Egyptian copper mines.

The first amphitheater were quarry sites, very close to the building sites for convenience of transportation. They realized there was great acoustics and could be useful once the city had built up around it. I think a common reason people are unable to put this issue into perspective is their lack of experience working in large construction projects or resource stripping.

 

[WhoWee]

It's also quite possible there were older civilizations in South America - where the jungles have masked the terrain.
http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~kjvaughn/vaughn%20et%20al%20mina%20primavera.pdf

 

[r8chard]

Yes, it is reasonably accurate to say there were forgotten agricultural/citystates in the Amazon region, that are being re-discovered. Though a lot of research remains to be accomplished by verification is a proven fact. And, just as Tenochtitlan, there may have been series of successor states of different waves of ethnic/language groups. But with little cultural mingling, except for copying or improving on major structures such as pyramids, that the newcomers found left behind by the preceding culture. As available technology usable in tropical areas is reinvented but not improved, due to the natural scarcity of tropical farming land/storage capability and other resources.

As Brazil continues to develop it's space program, the use of radar-mapping satellites will provide new sites to investigate. There may still be surprises out there to confound all of our assumptions.

For anyone who is interested establishing a long term research project, I am of the opinion, that the future archeologist should consider exploration of the coastal shelves. An ambitious and expensive and risky route to new discoverys. But, as our technology improves this would be a virtually untapped field that could explain lot of the inconsistencys hindering our understanding of that historical period when the lower ocean levels provided routes for our ancestors migratory wanderings.

 

[WhoWee]

Yes, it is reasonably accurate to say there were forgotten agricultural/citystates in the Amazon region, that are being re-discovered. Though a lot of research remains to be accomplished by verification is a proven fact. And, just as Tenochtitlan, there may have been series of successor states of different waves of ethnic/language groups. But with little cultural mingling, except for copying or improving on major structures such as pyramids, that the newcomers found left behind by the preceding culture. As available technology usable in tropical areas is reinvented but not improved, due to the natural scarcity of tropical farming land/storage capability and other resources.

As Brazil continues to develop it's space program, the use of radar-mapping satellites will provide new sites to investigate. There may still be surprises out there to confound all of our assumptions.

For anyone who is interested establishing a long term research project, I am of the opinion, that the future archeologist should consider exploration of the coastal shelves. An ambitious and expensive and risky route to new discoverys. But, as our technology improves this would be a virtually untapped field that could explain lot of the inconsistencys hindering our understanding of that historical period when the lower ocean levels provided routes for our ancestors migratory wanderings.

I read an article a few months ago about a very old mining site in Chile - can't find a link.

 

[r8chard]

WhoWee, I would suggest trying the Chilean University websites. If you do not read Spanish, a patient search should get you someone to contact directly. They may be able to assist you in finding info about the old mining site. Also museums and the probably have government sites for mining, archeology, geology?

r8chard

 

[WhoWee]

WhoWee, I would suggest trying the Chilean University websites. If you do not read Spanish, a patient search should get you someone to contact directly. They may be able to assist you in finding info about the old mining site. Also museums and the probably have government sites for mining, archeology, geology?

r8chard

This is one of the sites referenced in the other publication
http://www.thisischile.cl/Articles.aspx?id=5818&sec=419&itz&eje&idioma=2&t=discovery-of-oldest-mine-in-chile-changes-views-of-archaic-societies

"Archaeologists stand in wonder at the discovery of an ancient mine in northern Chile, which dates back thousands of years, before the apogee of ancient Egypt and around the time that humans began using pottery.

In 2008, Diego Salazar and a group of investigators at the Universidad de Chile came upon the ancient mine in a valley in San Ramón near Taltal, in northern Chile. Last year, analysis of the remains determined the site’s age: between 10,000 and 12,000 years old."

 

[r8chard]

Thank you, it will be interesting to explore the site cited.

 

[Dotini]

http://www.pasthorizonspr.com/index.php/archives/03/2011/27000-year-old-aboriginal-ochre-mines-achieve-national-heritage-listing
Here is an article discussing a 27,000 year old red ochre mine in Australia. Red ochre, hematite, and the iron oxide mentioned in the Chile mine seem to refer to the same thing, a mineral prized only for its usefulness as a pigment for coloring things.

http://home.entouch.net/dmd/mining.htm
It would seem prehistoric man has been mining for ochre and flint for many thousands of years, perhaps over a million.



Respectfully submitted,
Steve

 

[r8chard]

Yes Steve, you are correct.

A common misconception during early archeological treatises about pre-historic sites,
was that the large rocks and flint nodules found were the tools. Microscopic analysis has proven this concept wrong. The large rocks were raw materials, off which were struck the small, even tiny, working tools.

We always have to be careful not to let our cultural biases, our tribal prejudices, our self-absorption in how wonderful we are, influence our understanding of an alien people.

"You are confusing the customs of your village with the laws of the universe!"