Could ceramic coins be practical?

[Lren Zvsm]

What with copper becoming more and more valuable, and metals used in coins being a non-renewable resource, might it not be practical to mint ceramic coins that contain microdots that would make the coins difficult to counterfeit?

Microdots are already being used, for example, in car paint as a theft deterrent, as we see at this link: https://www.wired.com/2002/03/dots-all-you-need-for-security/

I'm guessing that a high-fired ceramic, like porcelain, would be strong enough to use for coins the size of poker chips. A plastic or biologically derived transparent covering would serve as a hedge against porcelain's tendency to chip.

https://www.seniorcare2share.com/is...ware/#What_is_better_earthenware_or_porcelain

The advantage of using ceramic coins instead of metal ones include the fact that Earth's crust has a heck of a lot of silicon dioxide in it.

Of course, some clever soul will point out that much of our money is electronic these days, and that someday all money will be electronic. This assumes that many of our current problems with cybersecurity will be solved--even in government computers. But if that doesn't happen, we might still need coins and other forms of cash.

 

[anorlunda]

The world seems headed toward cashless. That makes it poor timing to talk about new kinds of cash.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Copper prices are high, but they are Covid driven and were higher in the past. But why ceramic and not steel? That's been tried and works.,

 

[Algr]

Poker chips are too big. The ideal size for a coin is around that of a dime. I don't think cashless is going to happen because lots of people can't deal with it for various reasons. For example, children learning resource management. Dealing with physical objects as money helps them develop abstract concepts of math. Also, what happens to e-cash during an emergency when the internet goes out?

We could certainly do with fewer coins though. In the US, we should just have two:

As for ceramic coins, that sounds like a good idea if they are durable enough. Bright colorful coins perhaps?

 

[symbolipoint]

Lren Zvsm,
I like your question. Interesting.
In the beginning, we had theft; next came barter; next or some time later, came money, coins.

Would you guess maybe Silicon and Silicates are cheap?
(I did not read responses after post #1 yet.)

 

[symbolipoint]

Why not postage stamps as currency?

 

[phinds]

Why not postage stamps as currency?

too fragile

 

[symbolipoint]

too fragile

I see your point now after thinking on it a little. Very thin, easily bent & deformed, if moisture contacts could get stuck on things so difficult to handle.

 

[Lren Zvsm]

Copper prices are high, but they are Covid driven and were higher in the past. But why ceramic and not steel? That's been tried and works.,

My thinking was that a) steel corrodes and ceramics don't, and that b) the raw materials for ceramics are easily available everywhere. But these two points could be beside the point.

 

[Lren Zvsm]

Copper prices are high, but they are Covid driven and were higher in the past. But why ceramic and not steel? That's been tried and works.,

I was thinking that steel coins corrode more easily than ceramic ones would, and that it is easier to mine the silicon dioxide for ceramics that it is for iron. As for copper, I heard somewhere that each penny is now worth more than a penny.

 

[anorlunda]

As for copper, I heard somewhere that each penny is now worth more than a penny.

LOL. History is more interesting than that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_riksdaler
The daler was introduced in 1534. It was initially intended for international use and was divided into 4 marks and then a mark is further subdivided into 8 öre and then an öre is further subdivided into 24 pennings. In 1604, the name was changed to riksdaler ("daler of the realm", c.f. Reichsthaler). In 1609, the riksdaler rose to a value of 6 mark when the other Swedish coins were debased but the riksdaler remained constant.

From 1624, daler were issued in copper as well as silver. Because of the low value of copper, large plate money (plåtmynt) was issued.[3] These were rectangular pieces of copper weighing, in some cases, several kilograms. (The largest one is worth 10 daler and weighs almost 20 kilograms (44 lb)).

Do you see the connection? daler = dollar penning = penny. I read (sorry no link) that a day'swages for copper miners in Sweden was a certain weight of copper. I'm fuzzy on the details but I think the original daily wage for the miners was either a daler, or one öre or one penning. Perhaps some of our Swedish PF members can assist here.

 

[Vanadium 50]

was thinking that steel coins corrode

Here's an 80 (OK, 79) year old steel penny.

How long does it have to last?

I heard somewhere that each penny is now worth more than a penny.

Ah yes, the famous source "I heard somewhere". Today pennies are mostly zinc. My source is the US mint. But even Wikipedia refutes your so-called source.

But so what? What is the problem in having the metal cost exceed the face value? Afraid of people melting pennies down and selling the copper? It can't be production costs: the mint has a budget of $3.3B a year and makes 15 billion coins, about a third of which are pennies.

Finally, another bit of research you didn't do. There are places that use ceramic money - e.g. the island of Yap.

I don't think it's very practical.

 

[dlgoff]

In the US, we should just have two:

Could you explain your reasoning here?

 

[Klystron]

From first reading this thread I have been conflating these two ideas.

The advantage of using ceramic coins instead of metal ones include the fact that Earth's crust has a heck of a lot of silicon dioxide in it.

Of course, some clever soul will point out that much of our money is electronic these days, and that someday all money will be electronic...

The world seems headed toward cashless. ...

Each small coin contains an RFID that represents its fixed value. Each use debits the user's 'universal' account and credits the recipient's. An E-coin similar to but simpler than a credit/debit bank card, and issued by the Treasury department not by a commercial company. The value $5 or €10 or £20 is brightly stamped on the coin face repeated within electronic internals.

Refinements might include sophisticated anti-counterfeiting inclusions, anti-theft personalization while retaining anonymity required by 'cash' transactions, automatic sales taxes and trackless automatic verification likely based on biometrics. The coin stays in your hand used only by you unless physically transferred during intermediate transactions. The user multiplies an e-coin value to form a virtual stack, possibly using voice recognition and spoken commands.

E-coins avoid the hassles and overhead of credit cards and crypto-currencies. Government minted E-coins can eventually replace traditional currency for hand transactions and debit cards for e-transactions that address your government/universal/personal funds.

Similar to medical records, e-coin transaction remain strictly private, verified but not tracked.

 

[JT Smith]

Australia got rid of the 1 cent piece a while back and are now talking about getting rid of the 5 and 10 cent pieces. That would leave just their 20 and 50 cent pieces, similar to what Algr suggested. As inflation marches on there will come a point where anything less than a dollar isn't worth worrying about and so we'll be left with only paper money.

One could rejigger the currency to change the value of a dollar. But why bother with coins at all?

 

[Hornbein]

One could rejigger the currency to change the value of a dollar. But why bother with coins at all?

Coins are more durable than paper and hence less expensive.

I guess the problem with ceramic coins is they take too long to bake. With metal just stamp them and boom you're done.

 

[Algr]

Could you explain your reasoning here?

With those two coins, you eliminate the 100th place in decimals. Prices would just round to the dime, making rounding the same as we do it now.

 

[phinds]

I see your point now after thinking on it a little. Very thin, easily bent & deformed, if moisture contacts could get stuck on things so difficult to handle.

A typical USA bill lasts for years I'd be surprised if a postage stamp lasted 3 days.

 

[jtbell]

Why not postage stamps as currency?

too fragile

Encased postage stamps were briefly a thing during the US Civil War. They were produced and sold by a private businessman.

They were superseded by fractional currency issued by the government. The first issue of these used postage stamp designs printed on the same kind of paper used for dollar bills etc.

 

[JT Smith]

Coins are more durable than paper and hence less expensive.

How much less expensive? And does the difference matter?

I am imagining carrying a few $0.50 and $0.10 paper notes in my wallet. That seems far easier to me than the regular transfer of bulky change to the overflowing coffee can on the bookcase. Parking meters wouldn't work well with paper though.

 

[BillTre]

Parking meters wouldn't work well with paper though.

They can take credit cards and paper now, I think.

 

[phinds]

They can take credit cards and paper now, I think.

Newer ones where you pay at a central station and get a little card for your windshield, yeah, but not the simple, old style coin-fed type that are prevalent in many places in the US.

 

[collinsmark]

They can take credit cards and paper now, I think.

Newer ones where you pay at a central station and get a little card for your windshield, yeah, but not the simple, old style coin-fed type that are prevalent in many places in the US.

The parking meters around here (San Diego, Southern California) now take credit card payments directly from the meter, and also some other options:

• Credit Card (Visa, Mastercard, and Discover)
• Mobile Phone Payment on meters displaying a green Parkmobile sticker.
• Near Field Communication (NFC) payments such as Apple Pay, Android Pay, and Samsung Pay on certain enabled meters.
• Coins

 

[Melbourne Guy]

There are places that use ceramic money - e.g. the island of Yap.

Interesting factoid: the mechanism of Yap money is apparently an analogue blockchain.

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/yap-stone-money-bitcoin-blockchain-cryptocurrency

As for ceramic coins, they could be practical, @Lren Zvsm, but it might help to qualify the dimension of the problem you are trying to solve. Do you know how much metal is consumed makings coins? And from a cost perspective, are mints saying that costs are rising too much? (I would expect they have long-term supply contracts with caps or hedges to alleviate price fluctuations, but take that with a grain of salt.)

Down Under, cash in all forms is on a fast glide to obscurity, accelerated by covid. But even before that, tap and go was so ubiquitous that, typically, it is older people paying with cash. I go months without cash in my wallet, and cannot recall a purchase I was unable to make on the card.

 

[Hornbein]

The Yap money has the advantage of being very hard to counterfeit. The Yap had to risk their lives to acquire the stone, as carrying a heavy stone in a canoe is dangerous. The stones or more of a prestige thing than a practical currency. They had different money for everyday use.

The same thing was going on in Papua until about 1950(!). There were people living in the mountains who had forgotten about the ocean. The prestige money was abalone shells, which were believed to be of divine origin. The shells are now printed on the paper money of Papua.