Crepes with Egg Whites: Low Fat & High Protein?

[JasonRox]

A friend of mine that lifts weights was telling me that it's impossible to bulk up without some kind of supplement (protein powders/pills), because not even meat will provide the protein you need for body building.

I prefer steak, myself, but I'm also not that concerned about bulking.

I highly doubt this. This is a common myth. I used to believe it, but I now know it's full out wrong.

The only way it becomes necessary is when you're like a pro bodybuilder like in our older thread we had.

I guess you can say I'm "bulking" and I'm taking no supplements. I eat and eat and eat.

Note: I hate the term "bulking". It's silly. It's like this mind game they have going on for people who want to get big.

 

[JasonRox]

Pork really isn't that bad, because most of the fat is on the outside. If you trim the fat off, it's a pretty lean meat. Beef you can't do anything about the fat, so yeah, you have to keep portions small to avoid it being unhealthy. It's expensive too, especially the good cuts. Since I really do enjoy beef, I just cut it into smaller pieces before I freeze it so I just have a small portion at a time to enjoy the taste without overindulging in the fat, and try to limit it to once a week. My portion is what is really considered a serving of beef, which most people would think is miniscule considering what they're so used to.

It's not the fat I'm concerned about.

I heard that it's hard on the digestive system.

I eat pork probably once every 10 days. It will be less than that soon though. I just have some left in the freezer. Very good. For a second there I thought about sending you some, but that's not practical.

I gave away two boxes of burgers already. I just won't eat them. So, I'll share a burger and make them take the rest of the box.

 

[Pythagorean]

I highly doubt this. This is a common myth. I used to believe it, but I now know it's full out wrong.

The only way it becomes necessary is when you're like a pro bodybuilder like in our older thread we had.

I guess you can say I'm "bulking" and I'm taking no supplements. I eat and eat and eat.

Note: I hate the term "bulking". It's silly. It's like this mind game they have going on for people who want to get big.

do you have any sort of citing for this. I'd like to set my friend straight. I remember him talking lots of numbers (grams of protein) but I also don't know what his bulking goal.

Also, I'm curious about your problem with the semantics of 'bulking'. To me, it means building muscle mass (rather than toning it).

these are innocent inquiries, I'm not challenging you, I'm just curious about a subject I've only heard from my own peers and not any credible sources.

 

[Azael]

I'm not a fan of protein powders anymore.

I prefer to eat all my protein. It's not that hard like everyone makes it out to be. When I make my pita, it has 40 grams of protein in it. That's quite a lot. My breakfast has like 35 grams of protein. In two meals, I'm almost at 100 grams!

I kind of agree that it isn't hard. But over here in sweden it is expensive. Whey is usualy a cheaper way to get protein so I am more or less forced to use it. But I have stopped trying to cram down 400g protein/day becuase I have noticed 200g/Day does the jobb just as good :) So I don't use that much whey anymore. Except pre and post workout.

One thing though is that whey has some very interesting properties, it enhances imune system, it protectes the stomach against ulcers and it contains antioxidants.

 

[Azael]

do you have any sort of citing for this. I'd like to set my friend straight. I remember him talking lots of numbers (grams of protein) but I also don't know what his bulking goal.

Also, I'm curious about your problem with the semantics of 'bulking'. To me, it means building muscle mass (rather than toning it).

these are innocent inquiries, I'm not challenging you, I'm just curious about a subject I've only heard from my own peers and not any credible sources.

Id doubt you can find anything in the medical litterature that supports consuming hugh ammounts of protein, but I also think its hard to find anything that shows huge ammounts of protein has no benifits. The debate on how much protein is needed for optimal muscle growth has been going on for decades.

But as far as not beeing able to get enough protein with whole foods. Hell I could get down 400+ grams of protein each day without using supplements.

The only advantage I can se with huge ammounts of protein is that protein is a less fattening source of kcal than fat or carbs. It gives less energy per gram(because of the thermic effect), it is harder to store(must be converted to glucose) and its not the bodys preferred fuel.

 

[JasonRox]

Id doubt you can find anything in the medical litterature that supports consuming hugh ammounts of protein, but I also think its hard to find anything that shows huge ammounts of protein has no benifits. The debate on how much protein is needed for optimal muscle growth has been going on for decades.

But as far as not beeing able to get enough protein with whole foods. Hell I could get down 400+ grams of protein each day without using supplements.

The only advantage I can se with huge ammounts of protein is that protein is a less fattening source of kcal than fat or carbs. It gives less energy per gram(because of the thermic effect), it is harder to store(must be converted to glucose) and its not the bodys preferred fuel.

WHOA! 400 grams of protein!

I saw an article like a week ago about how eating like 1.5 grams per kilo is sufficient for someone doing resistance training. So, I'm guessing 2 grams per kilo for growth. I'll look for it later because I have to go to school now.

Also, I think it's a big scam how they say 1.5-2 grams of protein per pound. I don't know who the hell started this. Obviously the supplement companies support it!

 

[Azael]

WHOA! 400 grams of protein!

I saw an article like a week ago about how eating like 1.5 grams per kilo is sufficient for someone doing resistance training. So, I'm guessing 2 grams per kilo for growth. I'll look for it later because I have to go to school now.

Also, I think it's a big scam how they say 1.5-2 grams of protein per pound. I don't know who the hell started this. Obviously the supplement companies support it!

At the moment I was following a diet and training method called "doggcrapp"(after the inventors nickname ). It called for extreme protein consumption and a very interesting twist on HIT training philosophy. It worked wonders but I doubt the protein intake had anything to do with it realy. Eating 4+ pounds of meat, fish and chicken each day was a hassle.

Now when I am just keeping to strickt powerlifting training I just eat around 15-2 grams/kg and that seems like more than plenty for me.

I suspect the whole thing started back in Arnolds days with the "more is better" approach to everything

 

[selfAdjoint]

I don't know if it would help, but I used to have that problem with pancakes -- all I had to do was to change the temperature at which I cooked them.

Yeah the store lady I mentioned said that too. Get medium heat on a big burner, start it well before so it's stable by the time you want to cook, get the pan nice and thermally equalized with the burner, brush olive oil on the pan before tipping in the batter, and also put oil on the crepes as you stack them, to keep them from sticking together. Next week I'll make some egg-white batter and try the whole thing, I am not the most coordinated nerd on the block, but we'll see.

 

[Beeza]

A friend of mine that lifts weights was telling me that it's impossible to bulk up without some kind of supplement (protein powders/pills), because not even meat will provide the protein you need for body building.

I prefer steak, myself, but I'm also not that concerned about bulking.

It's not impossible, but a bit more difficult. Typically, whey protein or something or the sort will digest a bit more quickly post-workout etc. But, I think when it comes down to it, in the end, as far as non-horomonal supplements go, they make a difference of about 1-2lbs of muscle a year-- for the very serious bodybuilder.

Personally, I've competed in both a bodybuilding and powerlifitng competition, and throughout my years of training, I have noticed no huge difference in my training or results based on whether or not I could afford protein powder. etc.

 

[Azael]

It's not impossible, but a bit more difficult. Typically, whey protein or something or the sort will digest a bit more quickly post-workout etc. But, I think when it comes down to it, in the end, as far as non-horomonal supplements go, they make a difference of about 1-2lbs of muscle a year-- for the very serious bodybuilder.

Personally, I've competed in both a bodybuilding and powerlifitng competition, and throughout my years of training, I have noticed no huge difference in my training or results based on whether or not I could afford protein powder. etc.

at risk of highjacking this thread

What weightclass did you compete in and what was your results? I have never competed myself because of a weak squat and a weak grip but I intent to do it when I have fixed those 2 weaknesses.

 

[Moonbear]

WHOA! 400 grams of protein!

I saw an article like a week ago about how eating like 1.5 grams per kilo is sufficient for someone doing resistance training. So, I'm guessing 2 grams per kilo for growth. I'll look for it later because I have to go to school now.

Also, I think it's a big scam how they say 1.5-2 grams of protein per pound. I don't know who the hell started this. Obviously the supplement companies support it!

Yeah, that would be my guess too. They try to convince you that you need more than you do so you buy more of their product.

Do the guys on those supplements for a long time have any kidney problems from trying to excrete all that excess protein? That would put quite a load on the kidneys I'd think.

Pythagorean, I think the other body building thread (the one started with a picture of a body builder asking if it's male or female) would give insight to the objections to the term "bulking." It seems there are a lot of people who just go in it to get big, and don't care where or how or what their eventual shape looks like.

Jason, I think you just need to have a cookout for all your friends to use up the burgers.

Why would pork or beef be harder to digest than chicken? Where did you hear that? That's a new one I've never heard before.

 

[Azael]

Do the guys on those supplements for a long time have any kidney problems from trying to excrete all that excess protein? That would put quite a load on the kidneys I'd think.

Well acctualy I don't think there has ever been any real proof that high protein consumption can damage the kidney of a healthy person. There are plenty of nutritionist that argue for high protein diets.
Especialy those that work with athletes that require explosive strenght.
The idea of high protein beeing good for muscle growth and strenght development didnt start with the supplement companies but I am sure they do everything they can to keep it alive.

Here is a good debate about the acctual needs.
http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=05-068-diet

 

[Moonbear]

Well acctualy I don't think there has ever been any real proof that high protein consumption can damage the kidney of a healthy person.

According to this review, you're right, there aren't sufficient studies to determine if a high protein diet can be harmful to someone who doesn't start out with an underlying kidney disease.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=16174292

They aren't saying it's definitely safe, more that there's no evidence to really weigh in either way. They do comment that people on high protein diets for weight loss and for body building don't present with noticeably overwhelming incidences of kidney disease. But, that's why I asked. Especially in those who are really overdoing the protein consumption with supplements, there may be some locker room talk that hasn't really been recognized by the medical or research community yet.

The article certainly does present enough evidence of issues for those with pre-existing conditions, so before someone started on that sort of high protein regimen, they should get a full physical to ensure renal function is normal and they don't have any predisposition to kidney stones (another risk factor).

 

[turbo]

Pork really isn't that bad, because most of the fat is on the outside. If you trim the fat off, it's a pretty lean meat. Beef you can't do anything about the fat, so yeah, you have to keep portions small to avoid it being unhealthy. It's expensive too, especially the good cuts. Since I really do enjoy beef, I just cut it into smaller pieces before I freeze it so I just have a small portion at a time to enjoy the taste without overindulging in the fat, and try to limit it to once a week. My portion is what is really considered a serving of beef, which most people would think is miniscule considering what they're so used to.

Another suggestion for high-quality protein at a low price is to go to an Associated Grocers-affiliated store (if your area has them) and ask for blade steaks, sliced thin. Pan-fry them on pretty high heat. It's a very cheap cut of beef, but it's lean and the flavor is fantastic. I often have one of these little steaks for breakfast. We buy 15-20# at a time and package them for freezing, 2 in each package. At the local AG store, these little steaks are cheaper than hamburg and they are much leaner.

 

[Azael]

According to this review, you're right, there aren't sufficient studies to determine if a high protein diet can be harmful to someone who doesn't start out with an underlying kidney disease.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=16174292

They aren't saying it's definitely safe, more that there's no evidence to really weigh in either way. They do comment that people on high protein diets for weight loss and for body building don't present with noticeably overwhelming incidences of kidney disease. But, that's why I asked. Especially in those who are really overdoing the protein consumption with supplements, there may be some locker room talk that hasn't really been recognized by the medical or research community yet.

In my oppinion the whole bodybuilding community has kind of been a gunniea pig for high protein consumption for atleast 40 years now.
On the forum I am a moderator(57000 members, offcourse activ, repedetly posting members are maby only 1/5th-1/10th) eating 1,5-2g of protein/ib of bodyweight is the norm. Thats just one of many other equaly sized bodybuilding boards and I have never noticed any overrepresentation of kidney problems among any of them even though a lot of members are very open about there health and health issues.

I wonder if there is any study done specificly on athletes that typicaly overconsumes protein like bodybuilders, powerlifters and possibly football players and some athletes that require explosive strenght(sprinters, weightlifters, shotputters ect) and what health problems they suffer from.

The article certainly does present enough evidence of issues for those with pre-existing conditions, so before someone started on that sort of high protein regimen, they should get a full physical to ensure renal function is normal and they don't have any predisposition to kidney stones (another risk factor).

IMO everyone should get complete health checkups fairly often so I fully support that :) I myself had excelent liver, kidney and cholesterol vaules last checkup and I guess I can consider myself one of those that used to really overdo it with protein for extended time periods.

 

[JasonRox]

On the forum I am a moderator(57000 members, offcourse activ, repedetly posting members are maby only 1/5th-1/10th) eating 1,5-2g of protein/ib of bodyweight is the norm. Thats just one of many other equaly sized bodybuilding boards and I have never noticed any overrepresentation of kidney problems among any of them even though a lot of members are very open about there health and health issues.

Yes, but I noticed on bodybuilding forums they focus more on protein intake than micronutrients when the latter (mircronutrients) is more important (both are important obviously). To most people who workout, they think eating healthy is eating more protein. It's what I've seen anyways. They take multi-vitamins to make up for it. I got some vitamin B-12, but after discussing it on PF earlier in the summer, I decide it's a waste. I take no supplements.

Plus, a lot of people are open about health issues, but not with doctors. When I discussed the dangers and risks of hernias (after having mine removed in July), I realized that there are a lot of potential hernia carrying people in the gym. Yet, they won't go to the doctor half the time. Thinking it goes away or some other misinformed idea because they don't want to stop working out. So even if you told them it's not necessary to eat 1.5-2 grams of protein per pound, they wouldn't stop because of fear of getting smaller and weaker. Again, if they think they're at risk of kidney problems, they won't see the doctor because they fear they might have to stop eating all that protein, which is apparently getting them big.

It seems like those in the bodybuilding industry are so brainwashed that you can never pull them out. So many misinformed bodybuilders out there and the sad part is that they all think they have it right and it's so easy to get a new person to believe it.

Anyways, one day we will have a list of teenagers suffering.

Note: I did DC training last year. I exploded in strength and in size. I really liked it, but I wouldn't train that way again. I didn't read full into it though. I just read about the training style and everything. I only took 1 gram of protein per pound about. I've never really had more than that.

EDIT: I almost forgot. REP ME!

 

[JasonRox]

do you have any sort of citing for this. I'd like to set my friend straight. I remember him talking lots of numbers (grams of protein) but I also don't know what his bulking goal.

Also, I'm curious about your problem with the semantics of 'bulking'. To me, it means building muscle mass (rather than toning it).

these are innocent inquiries, I'm not challenging you, I'm just curious about a subject I've only heard from my own peers and not any credible sources.

I don't know if it's 100%, but I just doubt you need that much protein. The bulking concept "works" but it's usually all in the head. This is what I've seen through personal experience.

Ninety percent of the guys who workout that are "bulking" don't do cardio. This makes no sense at all because cardiovascular exercise increases the recovery rate, which is exactly what you want while gaining muscle. You want to workout and recover quickly.

I think the term "bulking" is tied up with the old myth that fat turns into muscle. The idea is usually to eat lots and you'll gain some fat, but also gain muscle easily. Since a lot of people were born believing fat goes to muscle and vice versa, I think it makes this concept easy to believe. If you want to get big, you need to lift big but also eat right. Now, they have the term "clean bulk" which is usually categorized as "bulking" but maintaining bodyfat. I enjoy this definition much much better. The problem with this is that no one enjoys. They find it too difficult to eat like an animal, but with healthy choices.

But to answer the question about whether or not "bulking" is possible without supplements, well that's something he needs to look at. Look at the healthy choices. My meals are quite simple. I aim for a good carbohydrate and protein combination. Usually I just aim for 25-35 grams of protein and plenty of carbohydrates so my protein isn't used as energy. I don't worry about the fats to often. As long as I eat fish every now and then, I'm fine with the fats. I eat a small chocolate bar (kid one), pizza, frozen yogurt, eggs, etc..., which all have fats in them. I'd like to get some fish oils though. I used to eat 12 Grain Bread everyday, but I stopped because it expires quickly and it's not the easiest thing to eat. A key to a healthy diet is to make it fun to eat, enjoyable to eat, tasty to eat and not a burden to prepare.

That's all for now I guess.

 

[JasonRox]

Ok, I'm back to talk some more.

Back to the toning issue.

I don't particularly like the following site, but the following article explains how toning is just a myth and hopefully bulking will become a myth.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/sisco13.htm

Check out number 4.

Anyways, back to the protein thing. If you eat 35 grams of protein for 5 meals a day or 30 grams of protein for 6 meals a day, that's 175 and 180 grams of protein! That should clearly be enough for anyone unless you're on steroids and weighing in at like 230 pounds of solid muscle.

So, if you take 2 scoops of protein a day, which averages 20-25 grams of protein, you're now at about 230 grams of protein a day. This is not necessary at all. There is not way the human body was developped to handle that much. I just doubt it can handle that on a daily basis. The average person eats like 70 grams of protein (just a wild guess based on what I see people eat normally).

So, 180 grams is over 2 times that amount and 230 is over 3 times that amount! That can't be good.

 

[Azael]

Yes, but I noticed on bodybuilding forums they focus more on protein intake than micronutrients when the latter (mircronutrients) is more important (both are important obviously). To most people who workout, they think eating healthy is eating more protein. It's what I've seen anyways. They take multi-vitamins to make up for it. I got some vitamin B-12, but after discussing it on PF earlier in the summer, I decide it's a waste. I take no supplements.

Yeah I defenetly agree that bodybuilders have that mindset. Even though I personaly feel there is a lot of benefits from vitamin(I have to admint I am a follower of Linus Paulings vitamin c megadosing theories) and mineral supplements I feel micronutrients are more or less ignored generaly in bodybuilding.

I guess they have that mindset because tweaking micronutrients (generaly)doesnt really produce any visual effects while tweaking macronutrients have dramatic visual effects. Health concerns when it comes to diet takes a backseat to musclegains and fatloss.

Plus, a lot of people are open about health issues, but not with doctors. When I discussed the dangers and risks of hernias (after having mine removed in July), I realized that there are a lot of potential hernia carrying people in the gym. Yet, they won't go to the doctor half the time. Thinking it goes away or some other misinformed idea because they don't want to stop working out. So even if you told them it's not necessary to eat 1.5-2 grams of protein per pound, they wouldn't stop because of fear of getting smaller and weaker. Again, if they think they're at risk of kidney problems, they won't see the doctor because they fear they might have to stop eating all that protein, which is apparently getting them big.

It seems like those in the bodybuilding industry are so brainwashed that you can never pull them out. So many misinformed bodybuilders out there and the sad part is that they all think they have it right and it's so easy to get a new person to believe it.

Ohh boy do I agree with this. I have spent a lot of time recently trying to show the people on the forum that high GI carbs pwo is not needed at all. heck the resistance I showed to that idea was high even though I consider myself fairly openminded. But the fact where just so clear. The narrowminded attitude is contagious.
But claiming that is like attacking a holy grail of bodybuilding. Same with some peoples refusal to let go of high volume training and the insane belife that failure training is somehow the ONLY way to lift.

Of the weightlifting related sports bodybuilding is the one that keep least in touch with science. Powerlifting and weightlifting have solid science behind there training theories while bodybuilding is just a bunch of superstition from old icons like Arnold and Mentzer. Its incredibly anoying and one of the reasons I abandoned bodybuilding and switched over to powerlifting. I hope someday people realize that those old gurus had nothing to back what they said except personal experience.

Anyways, one day we will have a list of teenagers suffering.

Note: I did DC training last year. I exploded in strength and in size. I really liked it, but I wouldn't train that way again. I didn't read full into it though. I just read about the training style and everything. I only took 1 gram of protein per pound about. I've never really had more than that.

EDIT: I almost forgot. REP ME!

I still believe that even a missguided bodybuilding lifestyle is far more healthy than the avarage obese or party lifestyle that most teenagers live today :( I hope the damn **** that mags like flex write will be updated soon though so that not as many keep on beeing misguided, se no gains and stop training in frustration.

DC really was harsh to my body. I could not imagine training like that for extended periods. I gained great but damn was I hurting everywhere and shot mentaly. Did you experience the same??

If you are interested in more DC info I still have the original cycles for pennies thread saved that DC started WAY back on animals board containing all the info(half of it is DC's thoughs on juicing though). All other info has been pulled from the web on DC's request so its hard to find nowdays.

REP ME (I run the risk of looking stupid for not getting that but I am swede so it explains it all )

 

[Azael]

Anyways, back to the protein thing. If you eat 35 grams of protein for 5 meals a day or 30 grams of protein for 6 meals a day, that's 175 and 180 grams of protein! That should clearly be enough for anyone unless you're on steroids and weighing in at like 230 pounds of solid muscle.

So, if you take 2 scoops of protein a day, which averages 20-25 grams of protein, you're now at about 230 grams of protein a day. This is not necessary at all. There is not way the human body was developped to handle that much. I just doubt it can handle that on a daily basis. The average person eats like 70 grams of protein (just a wild guess based on what I see people eat normally).

So, 180 grams is over 2 times that amount and 230 is over 3 times that amount! That can't be good.

Even nasser el sonbaty(those familiar with bodybuilding will know who this is:) ) say that he managed all right bulking with as little as 100g protein/day :)

But I think eating high protein while cutting is a very good strategy. Not because I believe the higher protein is somehow needed for muscle growth or to combat catabolism. Carbs take care of both those things.
But because 1 gram of protein is less fattening than 1 gram of carbs simplu because of the thermic effect of protein, the net energy given to the body from one gram of protein is more like 3 kcal than 4kcal. Its also hard for the body to in anyway store protein as fat. It first has to go through gluconeogenesis before the glucose produced gets turned into fat. I don't know if there is any other way for protein to get converted to and stored as fat??

So two diets with equal kcal but one higher in protein(say 50% of kcal instead of 25%) than the other should have a more benifical effect on fatloss. From personal experience this is true for me, but I can't say I can prove it with references. I don't se any risk(as in fatigue ect) in restricting carbs severly either if keeping a high protein diet since the body will make all the glucose it needs through gluconeogenesis and ketones will be responsible for all other energy needs. I don't agree with eating a diet with plenty of carbs. Not when bulking or cutting. I get all my carbs from fruit, yoghurt, rarely lentils and veggies.

I would guesstimate a typical inuite diet for instance would be richer in protein than a avarage westeners and those people are know for there good health(before we introduced the crapfood to them).

 

[Beeza]

If your really looking for good information on any topic involving natural bodybuilding, then read any article by Layne Norton. He is a good friend of mine and has recently won two pro cards in natural bodybuilding associations. His articles are also backed up by an underdrag degree in biochemistry and him being a PhD candidate in nutritional biochemistry specializing in amino acid utilization. I'd take anything he says in an article as the concrete truth.

 

[JasonRox]

I'd take anything he says in an article as the concrete truth.

Are you sure about that?

When he learns that you feel this way, he can totally abuse his position, which is something a lot of professionals seem to do nowadays.

 

[JasonRox]

Yeah, that would be my guess too. They try to convince you that you need more than you do so you buy more of their product.

Do the guys on those supplements for a long time have any kidney problems from trying to excrete all that excess protein? That would put quite a load on the kidneys I'd think.

Pythagorean, I think the other body building thread (the one started with a picture of a body builder asking if it's male or female) would give insight to the objections to the term "bulking." It seems there are a lot of people who just go in it to get big, and don't care where or how or what their eventual shape looks like.

Jason, I think you just need to have a cookout for all your friends to use up the burgers.

Why would pork or beef be harder to digest than chicken? Where did you hear that? That's a new one I've never heard before.

Ok, back to you now.

http://ibscrohns.about.com/cs/colorecalcancer/a/crcancerrisks.htm

It says to reduce the intake of red meat. Not sure where I got the whole pork idea from though. It's something I overheard, but it might be wrong.

I ate red meat today at a friends house (meatballs). So, it's not like I don't eat it. I just don't have it as part of my daily diet.

Note: I'm not sure what you're thinking about when I say "bulking", but in no way do I mean getting ridiculously huge. It's basically meant to eat more food to gain weight. There is no association to supplements or steroids of any kind. So, in a way if I saw a skinny person who wanted to gain muscle, I would say you should "bulk". I would later explain to "clean bulk" and so on.

In the end, you can't get ridiculously huge by "bulking". You can get really fat if you don't train or eat right though.

 

[JasonRox]

Ohh boy do I agree with this. I have spent a lot of time recently trying to show the people on the forum that high GI carbs pwo is not needed at all. heck the resistance I showed to that idea was high even though I consider myself fairly openminded. But the fact where just so clear. The narrowminded attitude is contagious.

I agree with this. After a workout, I normally just have a glass of milk, a fruit and one of my meals (which is usually a protein serving with a vegetable serving).

I would consider my meals to be lower on the GI scale. I eat fruits like Oranges, Apples, Peaches and Bananas. My vegetables are Brocoli, Spinach, Tomatoes, Carrots and Cucumbers.

I do eat high GI foods though. Not as much as I used too. I should continue to work on that though. It's JUST TOO HARD!

 

[Pythagorean]

Ok, I'm back to talk some more.

Back to the toning issue.

I don't particularly like the following site, but the following article explains how toning is just a myth and hopefully bulking will become a myth.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/sisco13.htm

Check out number 4.

Anyways, back to the protein thing. If you eat 35 grams of protein for 5 meals a day or 30 grams of protein for 6 meals a day, that's 175 and 180 grams of protein! That should clearly be enough for anyone unless you're on steroids and weighing in at like 230 pounds of solid muscle.

So, if you take 2 scoops of protein a day, which averages 20-25 grams of protein, you're now at about 230 grams of protein a day. This is not necessary at all. There is not way the human body was developped to handle that much. I just doubt it can handle that on a daily basis. The average person eats like 70 grams of protein (just a wild guess based on what I see people eat normally).

So, 180 grams is over 2 times that amount and 230 is over 3 times that amount! That can't be good.

excellent! Thank you for the info and the site. I actually learned quite a bit fromt he myths. I actually thought muscles diminished from non use (but then, he didn't include his diet during his downtime, so I assume muscle mass will diminish from malnutrition, which is more common than most people think, especially in college students!)

Anyway, I'm just getting into building some muscle (not extensive or pro or anything, just cause I feel like a weakling lately) so this is helpful info, thanx!

 

[JasonRox]

excellent! Thank you for the info and the site. I actually learned quite a bit fromt he myths. I actually thought muscles diminished from non use (but then, he didn't include his diet during his downtime, so I assume muscle mass will diminish from malnutrition, which is more common than most people think, especially in college students!)

Anyway, I'm just getting into building some muscle (not extensive or pro or anything, just cause I feel like a weakling lately) so this is helpful info, thanx!

Yeah, no need to get big.

You'll feel much better and more confident about yourself. Good things come from working out.

 

[Azael]

excellent! Thank you for the info and the site. I actually learned quite a bit fromt he myths. I actually thought muscles diminished from non use (but then, he didn't include his diet during his downtime, so I assume muscle mass will diminish from malnutrition, which is more common than most people think, especially in college students!)

Anyway, I'm just getting into building some muscle (not extensive or pro or anything, just cause I feel like a weakling lately) so this is helpful info, thanx!

Disregard number 3 on that site though. Its well known that you need to change exercises to continously gain strenght. CNS is responsible for a lot of the strenght gains and it gets stimulate differently from changing exercise. The best place to read up on training is this site
http://www.elitefts.com/articles/Current-Articles/default.asp
Click on the left on t-mag articles and find "The eight keys" excelent read.

If you lift the same weight for the same reps and sets week after week you won't se any progress at all. Best is it either continously increase weight each week(simply put classical periodisation) or to go heavy all the time but switch exercise every other week(conjugated perodisation). I am more into increasing weight myself because the other apporach is straining on joints. But both works excelently :)

Also don't fall for the biggest myth in the weightlifting world. That you have to take every set to failure to grow. Quit the opposit. Avoid going to failure it just tax your CNS without giving any extra growth.

 

[Azael]

I agree with this. After a workout, I normally just have a glass of milk, a fruit and one of my meals (which is usually a protein serving with a vegetable serving).

I would consider my meals to be lower on the GI scale. I eat fruits like Oranges, Apples, Peaches and Bananas. My vegetables are Brocoli, Spinach, Tomatoes, Carrots and Cucumbers.

I do eat high GI foods though. Not as much as I used too. I should continue to work on that though. It's JUST TOO HARD!

I have something similar. A shake with milk, a banana, some whey and 3 grams of ascorbic acid. What I have found digging through medline and reading what others write is that what you eat pre workout is what is most important. A serving of carbs and essential amino acids pre workout gives a larger boost to muscle protein synthesis than carbs + EAA's post workout.

Its one of the few times I think whey is superior to food because only the essential amino acids have that effect and whey is cram packed with em :) I guess maby eggs would work.

I have to admit I also eat high gi foods :( But I limit it to once a week and have a full cheat day I eat candy and crap food until I pass out

Who can live without candy and pizza

 

[Pythagorean]

Also don't fall for the biggest myth in the weightlifting world. That you have to take every set to failure to grow. Quit the opposit. Avoid going to failure it just tax your CNS without giving any extra growth.

by failure do you mean 'maxing out' where you keep increasing the weight until you can't lift anymore?

 

[shmoe]

I think the term "bulking" is tied up with the old myth that fat turns into muscle. The idea is usually to eat lots and you'll gain some fat, but also gain muscle easily. Since a lot of people were born believing fat goes to muscle and vice versa, I think it makes this concept easy to believe.

Believing fat turns into muscle is not at all the mentality of anyone I've ever known who "bulks". Their usual idea was to have plenty of excess calories availble to build muscle without worrying about keeping fat gain down. This isn't a ticket to eat whatever junk you want, just not bothering to limit your calorie intake while still eating healthy food. It seemed to work pretty well as far as building strength and muscle were concerned. Common sense seems like this is an easier way to ensure you are never lacking enough nutrients to build muscle then if you try to eat *just enough* for your bodies needs, you don't have to worry about standing on the line if you just ignore it and go well beyond it.

The next part of the plan was to try an lose as much fat as possible while minimizing muscle loss. This never really worked as expected with my friends, it's not terribly easy having to limit your food intake after months of free eating and they would never come close to dropping as much fat as they had planned.

I never bother with any of this though, just eat as much as I crave and try to keep the food mostly healthy.

You mentioned 12-grain bread going bad- use the freezer! Ok, it depends on what you're going to do with it, but I mostly turn it into peanut butter toast and I can't notice much of a difference when it starts frozen compared to fresh.