Cryptology and codes vigenere code formula

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the Vigenère cipher, focusing on its decoding formula and frequency analysis techniques. Participants explore the complexities of understanding the cipher's mechanics, share resources, and present challenges related to cryptology.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Homework-related

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about the decoding formula of the Vigenère cipher and seeks clarification.
  • Another participant explains that decoding involves performing frequency analysis on separate segments of the message, emphasizing the need to analyze every 26th letter.
  • Some participants share resources, including a book by Simon Singh, which they consider accessible for learning about cryptography.
  • A challenge is presented with a text encoded using the Vigenère cipher, inviting others to decode it.
  • Concerns are raised about the security of the Vigenère cipher, with a participant noting its effectiveness if messages are kept short and varied.
  • Some participants express apprehension about working with Vigenère ciphers, preferring to engage with simpler substitution ciphers instead.
  • There are mentions of tools and websites that can assist in breaking codes, with some participants indicating they would use them only when necessary.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the ease or difficulty of the Vigenère cipher, with some finding it manageable while others express confusion. Multiple views on the effectiveness and security of the cipher are presented, and the discussion remains unresolved regarding the best approach to decoding it.

Contextual Notes

Some participants mention the limitations of short messages in frequency analysis and the potential for confusion in understanding the cipher's mechanics. There are also references to the varying levels of familiarity with cryptology among participants.

lordlactose
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigenère_cipher

I have comprehended how to make a cod using this method. I understand frequency analysis for the most part. But does anyone know how the formula for decoding a vigenere code work. I have read that part of the wikipedia article many times. The formula is 2 confusing for me to grasp based upon the info I have received so far. Can anyone explain this to me?

Also does anyone have a link to a good cryptology site. I already googled but couldn't find one with puzzles and challenge ect.I also have a thread in the computer section i need help with plees ehelp
 
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It's just like doing a frequency attack on a regular cipher but you have to do a separate frequency count on every 26th letter.
All the equation means is that you split the message into 26 separate messages, starting with the first character then put the second into the second list and so on. It's security comes from the fsact that in short messages you will only have a few characters in each set to do the frequency analysis on.

This book is one of the most acessible intros to crypto http://www.simonsingh.net/The_Code_Book.html there is a lot of info on the site.
 
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mgb_phys said:
It's just like doing a frequency attack on a regular cipher but you have to do a separate frequency count on every 26th letter.
All the equation means is that you split the message into 26 separate messages, starting with the first character then put the second into the second list and so on. It's security comes from the fsact that in short messages you will only have a few characters in each set to do the frequency analysis on.

This book is one of the most acessible intros to crypto http://www.simonsingh.net/The_Code_Book.html there is a lot of info on the site.

wow thanks for the great link you provided... That Indian guy has a great website for cryptology. After reading more about decoding vinegre i decided to decode other codes instead that 1 is way to confusing to decode
 
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The vigenere cipher did stand up for 300 years and is still quite good if you keep the message short and don't put the same long greeting at the start and the end.

ps. Simon Singh is British
 
For your amusement, here you have a challenge: a text encoded as described in the Wikipedia page above.
Code: 
IDYT HSRUUZG JEYVJ VJD, RLV XKXPF SW VQ FPNII CHMLGMR FVPT UNSE V QZOI RV
FDYFSWZQB PD RLV JWWPRQ, EPW HHGGY CDS NCEIOT IHO TRJZV ZF LFPJJTYEMYJ GLCPS.
YH VWZWCH KDV QILH WJ P WYRUHMLCR BITRYHG WFS WJOS HGQ WCH WILIJ RHGP UVZWOHC
IL GRMWJRUCWV; RISEPW VVLS TFIP RHGP WMUGDVW. UMKKDQ L AIEWPUN, RLV GDCRUYKV
RDH EQXREGLHSEB: D VPXOWIULX ATTFYRQDDC DGECHXW ZF KLDMDCT, AZWC RWAQWZFVO
LRYFZDI XYFJITWDRCD. XYH FDYTCRK RDH AJWF YHRTPFIIHY: DOKI QJWXZNQ FI FDXBGRRWDYT
ALECBNLH, GPCXNWGLTCH ZDWW EVEDSGHH OD MDMLPEIMRJ RLIS SRCLHLIPD VVSZWXEIMR.
OKTDE IODHSAPS QRGZ XE NSJVDEAP DSI V ATBPEILVQ ZF KVQDXH TM ULNFDGEP KKZ
UFNBEDHIWPW JEN JI EHC CLWUPCY. KKDV EHGRBHM DMSCVMHY ISAR ROG ISE FFRFV,
NM DDOWTC FSN YLKPRQI WCHN MGKYW ET, YVV HDSP ST RA ISE WRPZ TWEKIEWN:
EHC JSVFT, RLV KHGTOB, WCH NOKQR, WWP RAVQOB-EWM CHOWTCS SW OKT AJTYDWHI.
FI DGVD AJPVJZG L DETW ZWTCF KUVYTWEPW KVYT CMRWLMPTO: ME OKT VYWK GLQCAPC
WCHGP YVV IR EWM ZGZQITCYP EJRZD. JIRH ISEQI WRR TNASEWMRKPRRMSOZ ECEKMJHN
WP BIUXXHS TFEK OKT LGFIDMB TS XFWVO LNB KKVW TTQ JKZOKPS VVJDVIPR ECO WWP
NSJVDEAP ASDEDQPEIMRJ JI EHC KZZQIJ-MHU JUISOEVRSCLRLL WPPWRAD (E QPPQPR AYLXK,
TFSLJC TITPIDHGB GAQX, DV YOR ZQALCTTC): ZYTCYRLZQB: EHC DLIXIPLW UHODXWEB YLNWDCY
SW OKT FSXLUZ, EHC RUXKPYGCPJ' DJEOZMFJMDESICW, OKT FYMKKAXA CYXROJJJPS SW OKT
LGFIDMB, TFSLVVQSD YRU OKDFSYRUV RU FYPJH FPEAJSXXZV, TFI GZPDYSRVRWDRC OD KKZ
ULLJETB RU TFSJH FPEAJSXXZV, TFI GZPDYSRVRWDRC OD KKZ ULLJETB RU TFI WMXT CYXROJJJP,
XYH JCZSRMT BRHAEJ FI EPDIJMUHN, EHC TRHPTYTYVP JQ EHYX JJVEPL, KKZ RZMKIEWVUN OL
KKZ RZMKIEWVUN OL KKVW ROQTVO, ISE XIXZ HEOPC RA NZUP UHVWW, RLV OUPYSJEKLJQ ZF
IMHMB MOMO LI PWL PRQBXPREQ, WCH TNRIISJOPEIMRJ JI PVCVP WRDV GR DGO MOMOJ.
 
Dodo said:
For your amusement, here you have a challenge: a text encoded as described in the Wikipedia page above.
Code: 
IDYT HSRUUZG JEYVJ VJD, RLV XKXPF SW VQ FPNII CHMLGMR FVPT UNSE V QZOI RV
FDYFSWZQB PD RLV JWWPRQ, EPW HHGGY CDS NCEIOT IHO TRJZV ZF LFPJJTYEMYJ GLCPS.
YH VWZWCH KDV QILH WJ P WYRUHMLCR BITRYHG WFS WJOS HGQ WCH WILIJ RHGP UVZWOHC
IL GRMWJRUCWV; RISEPW VVLS TFIP RHGP WMUGDVW. UMKKDQ L AIEWPUN, RLV GDCRUYKV
RDH EQXREGLHSEB: D VPXOWIULX ATTFYRQDDC DGECHXW ZF KLDMDCT, AZWC RWAQWZFVO
LRYFZDI XYFJITWDRCD. XYH FDYTCRK RDH AJWF YHRTPFIIHY: DOKI QJWXZNQ FI FDXBGRRWDYT
ALECBNLH, GPCXNWGLTCH ZDWW EVEDSGHH OD MDMLPEIMRJ RLIS SRCLHLIPD VVSZWXEIMR.
OKTDE IODHSAPS QRGZ XE NSJVDEAP DSI V ATBPEILVQ ZF KVQDXH TM ULNFDGEP KKZ
UFNBEDHIWPW JEN JI EHC CLWUPCY. KKDV EHGRBHM DMSCVMHY ISAR ROG ISE FFRFV,
NM DDOWTC FSN YLKPRQI WCHN MGKYW ET, YVV HDSP ST RA ISE WRPZ TWEKIEWN:
EHC JSVFT, RLV KHGTOB, WCH NOKQR, WWP RAVQOB-EWM CHOWTCS SW OKT AJTYDWHI.
FI DGVD AJPVJZG L DETW ZWTCF KUVYTWEPW KVYT CMRWLMPTO: ME OKT VYWK GLQCAPC
WCHGP YVV IR EWM ZGZQITCYP EJRZD. JIRH ISEQI WRR TNASEWMRKPRRMSOZ ECEKMJHN
WP BIUXXHS TFEK OKT LGFIDMB TS XFWVO LNB KKVW TTQ JKZOKPS VVJDVIPR ECO WWP
NSJVDEAP ASDEDQPEIMRJ JI EHC KZZQIJ-MHU JUISOEVRSCLRLL WPPWRAD (E QPPQPR AYLXK,
TFSLJC TITPIDHGB GAQX, DV YOR ZQALCTTC): ZYTCYRLZQB: EHC DLIXIPLW UHODXWEB YLNWDCY
SW OKT FSXLUZ, EHC RUXKPYGCPJ' DJEOZMFJMDESICW, OKT FYMKKAXA CYXROJJJPS SW OKT
LGFIDMB, TFSLVVQSD YRU OKDFSYRUV RU FYPJH FPEAJSXXZV, TFI GZPDYSRVRWDRC OD KKZ
ULLJETB RU TFSJH FPEAJSXXZV, TFI GZPDYSRVRWDRC OD KKZ ULLJETB RU TFI WMXT CYXROJJJP,
XYH JCZSRMT BRHAEJ FI EPDIJMUHN, EHC TRHPTYTYVP JQ EHYX JJVEPL, KKZ RZMKIEWVUN OL
KKZ RZMKIEWVUN OL KKVW ROQTVO, ISE XIXZ HEOPC RA NZUP UHVWW, RLV OUPYSJEKLJQ ZF
IMHMB MOMO LI PWL PRQBXPREQ, WCH TNRIISJOPEIMRJ JI PVCVP WRDV GR DGO MOMOJ.


is that a vigenere cypher. I am afraid of vigenere cyphers but if it is a substitution cypher then I will try and solve it but I won't do vigenere
 
It's a Vigenere. Here is an extra hint: the code that produced that text.

Hey, somebody please compile, run and give some output roughly of the same size, so I can play too. :)
 

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Dodo said:
It's a Vigenere. Here is an extra hint: the code that produced that text.

Hey, somebody please compile, run and give some output roughly of the same size, so I can play too. :)

here i will give u a code when i get done making it. Or I will just use simonsingh.net to make it. You should check it out it has cheat programs to for breaking codes ( I would only use it if I was stumped)
 
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Ok, thanks... And BTW, the Vigenere (stage 4 of the challenges) at SimonSingh,
http://www.simonsingh.net/The_Ciphertexts.html
is rather easy. (Even if the clear text was in French -- well, I don't know French, but it looks French :) It matched the English frequency distribution, roughly enough.) Spoilers on the attachment.
 

Attachments

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  • #10
EO UBL KVORCL UBL FERBUN JPSLAU UBL CEPO ACLLHA UPOERBU. E BPHL SPO HGVC QLDPFLA HSLAEWLOU. EJ NPV APCXL UBEA EUA HSPQGQCN QLDGVAL NPV VALW WGUG JSLTVLODN GOGCNAEA. E IGOWLS EJ APFLPOL DPVCW APCXL G ABPSU POL IBLO WGUG JSLTVLODN GOGCNAEA EA OPU LJJLDUEXL. its not necessarily a vigenere cypher. solve this if u wish i made it. I used simonsingh.net code maker. But i typed the code.
 
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  • #11
Dodo said:
For your amusement, here you have a challenge: a text encoded as described in the Wikipedia page above.
Code: 
IDYT HSRUUZG JEYVJ VJD, RLV XKXPF SW VQ FPNII CHMLGMR FVPT UNSE V QZOI RV
FDYFSWZQB PD RLV JWWPRQ, EPW HHGGY CDS NCEIOT IHO TRJZV ZF LFPJJTYEMYJ GLCPS.
YH VWZWCH KDV QILH WJ P WYRUHMLCR BITRYHG WFS WJOS HGQ WCH WILIJ RHGP UVZWOHC
IL GRMWJRUCWV; RISEPW VVLS TFIP RHGP WMUGDVW. UMKKDQ L AIEWPUN, RLV GDCRUYKV
RDH EQXREGLHSEB: D VPXOWIULX ATTFYRQDDC DGECHXW ZF KLDMDCT, AZWC RWAQWZFVO
LRYFZDI XYFJITWDRCD. XYH FDYTCRK RDH AJWF YHRTPFIIHY: DOKI QJWXZNQ FI FDXBGRRWDYT
ALECBNLH, GPCXNWGLTCH ZDWW EVEDSGHH OD MDMLPEIMRJ RLIS SRCLHLIPD VVSZWXEIMR.
OKTDE IODHSAPS QRGZ XE NSJVDEAP DSI V ATBPEILVQ ZF KVQDXH TM ULNFDGEP KKZ
UFNBEDHIWPW JEN JI EHC CLWUPCY. KKDV EHGRBHM DMSCVMHY ISAR ROG ISE FFRFV,
NM DDOWTC FSN YLKPRQI WCHN MGKYW ET, YVV HDSP ST RA ISE WRPZ TWEKIEWN:
EHC JSVFT, RLV KHGTOB, WCH NOKQR, WWP RAVQOB-EWM CHOWTCS SW OKT AJTYDWHI.
FI DGVD AJPVJZG L DETW ZWTCF KUVYTWEPW KVYT CMRWLMPTO: ME OKT VYWK GLQCAPC
WCHGP YVV IR EWM ZGZQITCYP EJRZD. JIRH ISEQI WRR TNASEWMRKPRRMSOZ ECEKMJHN
WP BIUXXHS TFEK OKT LGFIDMB TS XFWVO LNB KKVW TTQ JKZOKPS VVJDVIPR ECO WWP
NSJVDEAP ASDEDQPEIMRJ JI EHC KZZQIJ-MHU JUISOEVRSCLRLL WPPWRAD (E QPPQPR AYLXK,
TFSLJC TITPIDHGB GAQX, DV YOR ZQALCTTC): ZYTCYRLZQB: EHC DLIXIPLW UHODXWEB YLNWDCY
SW OKT FSXLUZ, EHC RUXKPYGCPJ' DJEOZMFJMDESICW, OKT FYMKKAXA CYXROJJJPS SW OKT
LGFIDMB, TFSLVVQSD YRU OKDFSYRUV RU FYPJH FPEAJSXXZV, TFI GZPDYSRVRWDRC OD KKZ
ULLJETB RU TFSJH FPEAJSXXZV, TFI GZPDYSRVRWDRC OD KKZ ULLJETB RU TFI WMXT CYXROJJJP,
XYH JCZSRMT BRHAEJ FI EPDIJMUHN, EHC TRHPTYTYVP JQ EHYX JJVEPL, KKZ RZMKIEWVUN OL
KKZ RZMKIEWVUN OL KKVW ROQTVO, ISE XIXZ HEOPC RA NZUP UHVWW, RLV OUPYSJEKLJQ ZF
IMHMB MOMO LI PWL PRQBXPREQ, WCH TNRIISJOPEIMRJ JI PVCVP WRDV GR DGO MOMOJ.
is that the 1 in french that u speak of?
 
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  • #12
No, this is in English. In the post where I mention a message in French, there is a link; on that page, click on "stage 4".
 
  • #13
http://www.simonsingh.net/The_Black_Chamber/cracking_tool.html

I don't completely understand how to solve the vinegre square. The article didn't clearly explain.

I copy and pasted this from his site. I don't know how to decipher it because its a vinegre. If we work together I bet I will figure it out. Or if you don't feel like working on this cryptogram it I will just do hidden message cryptograms instead.

QVUEVAIOHJCFMINRCFIYTMPZTFGVKIEKSQAVLOXWVBEK@CEOX@
TEXPKI@QVX@RHTRQISPZYBRSWEHJPOGHJYDXJGEJTWPH@XEX@RIESK
VITHVJDVGXBMAMEBXQWEPIMMHSKVEIAIFFCPTPHIMMPRFVEJTX
QUIZPPNXHMXTKZMSTTKKVFEEUFCCPXJXVPUEOBPV@CEOX@SKILGT
YQWS@TBX@VDJJBWQDQDLXLCICGHJNWKLXBGQTLNLTKCKKBGCYA
SJPVTBIAILGUPXROUFMQWEUBRBKITLETBCHTXETVQKQVBSVAIOP
RFGISTVUTAXCCNBOBCIULSCTMVAIODJVAIJUST@MLBXV@FTCPLITXP
LCKDXJLGIVAIAPCUHJMWSVHKOPTJLQVUMTLXCPREBIPGIITVAXRI
PLXIXJXCTTVGEMHTAGKIRCVGTWLCEDECATVKOIAUVQFXETMTM
SJQWVHRBHXJXWEPTGHJQWINXXQTVUHRJNJCMLBGWITZBBICGSA
SMFXEQWEVAITPWCLURPVGLXLJXFTVHBEPPMQWGWKPVQPCVOE
PMTYVLBXJXGEPVCVXBGEPWXRGRQYXETMPLGOXTVBSKPPUHKBD
VIBEKPAKYILUXJXEYDZGBHOTACVLFAHKLLZDREEYPXSPMLXIQAF
SQWITPEPUVGVOITHCGHPXGMECQDJKOIIXXVEIPISPXPLOIPZIPTEEA
EYDYVTJLDXCGHXWENYPLCKYAMZWAGKIXGVCGKBSMPTRBPXTHA
YTWKWIQWIKKKOPZGTRALITXWXRVGWXLILGFIJDVAHJCXZGEMQIP
GUVLILGKWLUQKGITWSITZBJTVKCFCKVHKBIENBZFCKGQGBTHKGK
INICKPVXRVAEQJRKOIOHENLXOJKIEIFPQKGHBQXGWJLGEDXPFTJKK
IIXKKHYPACGGXBGXCBRBSXJTXQWIAAEAPPNUIBCFQKRLCXJXMOQ
EEDWTXXJ@MLBXV@JTRAHMP@MLBXV@VKSRHITLTLROGMWXCHJTHKTZG
KXXZIPMLBBSWMMKILKLW@QPX@GHJBMMUMIKRIQNVPLEUMLBBETLL
ZDYPMVVSSYGFVILGKMSTVYBXEXRCLXETVKOIOLSWGHQLIPMCJX
PGLSCILGLIXBCHBVPIQ@QLX@SXZKWEKSFTHEAXQRKIPHMQGSCILGBH
BCXKMCLUXJBRDHWGXQPISOXXLWEXXFBTRITMKTHQGEJTQQKEY
AITTAXUXGKRLDRVHAXGHUXZBCMPZEQHYEAEQXQGBJLJRFHYQUST
VIOIEKGXEPXVAMPQPGTOMAEEXSSTVIKSTCAKMLKTXVEIPLEUML
BRLWKGENETWEKSXJTXMWMNBTMXVTBTIPXGHJQWMUIEOXWJTRAP
PUHKBDVIBEKPAKYILUXJXEYDZGPIOTHG@THX@CHDNVF@THC@GHQWE
VTPBMEPWIOQETMLLASOXAXQVCAEJISDBEPPRFKSDTVKGJXCXEAMIS
VGGSCILGTJLGIUTMALITXEIHSFXEAPRFUYOXIFTRAILCMXE@THC@KOC
AEVPMISITGIPHFGRSKSXJXGEJVEACXGHKGXBGWGVXBSAKMLANO
GLEKSQQNRAHEPWKXIIUPMQWWETXQTVGWGXIXNXJBTHKGKLCM
VPEPILGFEOHLGLEKSXJTXQWINHAITEFXRIXRGUIVDRFPEPILGKMST
VCGHQWEV@MLB@SMUMEKIWCOEDTPCBVCGSOPLFRLVAITXRFPEPGY
UAMKVACLXETWGTEKSXJTXQWIUFEIAFWGHITSHLLFKITLKODAKG
KXUVCBHLUMVTPIPRFUIDXRPBRDISEKCTPWRBTThe letter Q appears approximately 47 times
ceox appears 2 times i used @ symbols to make their location stand out
I found other reocurring combox marked with @
 
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  • #14
Key: EXPECT

MYFATHERSFAMILYNAMEBEINGPIRRIPANDMYCHRISTIANNAMEPHILIPMYINFANTTONGUECOULDMAKEOFB
OTHNAMESNOTHINGLONGERORMOREEXPLICITTHANPIPSOICALLEDMYSELFPIPANDCAMETOBECALLEDPIP
IGIVEPIRRIPASMYFATHERSFAMILYNAMEONTHEAUTHORITYOFHISTOMBSTONEANDMYSISTERMRSJOEGAR
GERYWHOMARRIEDTHEBLACKSMITHASINEVERSAWMYFATHERORMYMOTHERANDNEVERSAWANYLIKENESSOF
EITHEROFTHEMFORTHEIRDAYSWERELONGBEFORETHEDAYSOFPHOTOGRAPHSMYFIRSTFANCIESREGARDIN
GWHATTHEYWERELIKEWEREUNREASONABLYDERIVEDFROMTHEIRTOMBSTONESTHESHAPEOFTHELETTERSO
NMYFATHERSGAVEMEANODDIDEATHATHEWASASQUARESTOUTDARKMANWITHCURLYBLACKHAIRFROMTHECH
ARACTERANDTURNOFTHEINSCRIPTIONALSOGEORGIANAWIFEOFTHEABOVEIDREWACHILDISHCONCLUSIO
NTHATMYMOTHERWASFRECKLEDANDSICKLYTOFIVELITTLESTONELOZENGESEACHABOUTAFOOTANDAHALF
LONGWHICHWEREARRANGEDINANEATROWBESIDETHEIRGRAVEANDWERESACREDTOTHEMEMORYOFFIVELIT
TLEBROTHERSOFMINEWHOGAVEUPTRYINGTOGETALIVINGEXCEEDINGLYEARLYINTHATUNIVERSALSTRUG
GLEIAMINDEBTEDFORABELIEFIRELIGIOUSLYENTERTAINEDTHATTHEYHADALLBEENBORNONTHEIRBACK
SWITHTHEIRHANDSINTHEIRTROUSERSPOCKETSANDHADNEVERTAKENTHEMOUTINTHISSTATEOFEXISTEN
CEOURSWASTHEMARSHCOUNTRYDOWNBYTHERIVERWITHINASTHERIVERWOUNDTWENTYMILESOFTHESEAMY
FIRSTMOSTVIVIDANDBROADIMPRESSIONOFTHEIDENTITYOFTHINGSSEEMSTOMETOHAVEBEENGAINEDON
AMEMORABLERAWAFTERNOONTOWARDSEVENINGATSUCHATIMEIFOUNDOUTFORCERTAINTHATTHISBLEAKP
LACEOVERGROWNWITHNETTLESWASTHECHURCHYARDANDTHATPHILIPPIRRIPLATEOFTHISPARISHANDAL
SOGEORGIANAWIFEOFTHEABOVEWEREDEADANDBURIEDANDTHATALEXANDERBARTHOLOMEWABRAHAMTOBI
ASANDROGERINFANTCHILDRENOFTHEAFORESAIDWEREALSODEADANDBURIEDANDTHATTHEDARKFLATWIL
DERNESSBEYONDTHECHURCHYARDINTERSECTEDWITHDYKESANDMOUNDSANDGATESWITHSCATTEREDCATT
LEFEEDINGONITWASTHEMARSHESANDTHATTHELOWLEADENLINEBEYONDWASTHERIVERANDTHATTHEDIST
ANTSAVAGELAIRFROMWHICHTHEWINDWASRUSHINGWASTHESEAANDTHATTHESMALLBUNDLEOFSHIVERSGR
OWINGAFRAIDOFITALLANDBEGINNINGTOCRYWASPIP

I wrote the program below, and used its output sorted by the 4th column (using the "sort" command) to help getting the key length. The 1st and 2nd column tell the letter and its position, respectively.
 

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  • #15
Dodo said:
Key: EXPECT

MYFATHERSFAMILYNAMEBEINGPIRRIPANDMYCHRISTIANNAMEPHILIPMYINFANTTONGUECOULDMAKEOFB
OTHNAMESNOTHINGLONGERORMOREEXPLICITTHANPIPSOICALLEDMYSELFPIPANDCAMETOBECALLEDPIP
IGIVEPIRRIPASMYFATHERSFAMILYNAMEONTHEAUTHORITYOFHISTOMBSTONEANDMYSISTERMRSJOEGAR
GERYWHOMARRIEDTHEBLACKSMITHASINEVERSAWMYFATHERORMYMOTHERANDNEVERSAWANYLIKENESSOF
EITHEROFTHEMFORTHEIRDAYSWERELONGBEFORETHEDAYSOFPHOTOGRAPHSMYFIRSTFANCIESREGARDIN
GWHATTHEYWERELIKEWEREUNREASONABLYDERIVEDFROMTHEIRTOMBSTONESTHESHAPEOFTHELETTERSO
NMYFATHERSGAVEMEANODDIDEATHATHEWASASQUARESTOUTDARKMANWITHCURLYBLACKHAIRFROMTHECH
ARACTERANDTURNOFTHEINSCRIPTIONALSOGEORGIANAWIFEOFTHEABOVEIDREWACHILDISHCONCLUSIO
NTHATMYMOTHERWASFRECKLEDANDSICKLYTOFIVELITTLESTONELOZENGESEACHABOUTAFOOTANDAHALF
LONGWHICHWEREARRANGEDINANEATROWBESIDETHEIRGRAVEANDWERESACREDTOTHEMEMORYOFFIVELIT
TLEBROTHERSOFMINEWHOGAVEUPTRYINGTOGETALIVINGEXCEEDINGLYEARLYINTHATUNIVERSALSTRUG
GLEIAMINDEBTEDFORABELIEFIRELIGIOUSLYENTERTAINEDTHATTHEYHADALLBEENBORNONTHEIRBACK
SWITHTHEIRHANDSINTHEIRTROUSERSPOCKETSANDHADNEVERTAKENTHEMOUTINTHISSTATEOFEXISTEN
CEOURSWASTHEMARSHCOUNTRYDOWNBYTHERIVERWITHINASTHERIVERWOUNDTWENTYMILESOFTHESEAMY
FIRSTMOSTVIVIDANDBROADIMPRESSIONOFTHEIDENTITYOFTHINGSSEEMSTOMETOHAVEBEENGAINEDON
AMEMORABLERAWAFTERNOONTOWARDSEVENINGATSUCHATIMEIFOUNDOUTFORCERTAINTHATTHISBLEAKP
LACEOVERGROWNWITHNETTLESWASTHECHURCHYARDANDTHATPHILIPPIRRIPLATEOFTHISPARISHANDAL
SOGEORGIANAWIFEOFTHEABOVEWEREDEADANDBURIEDANDTHATALEXANDERBARTHOLOMEWABRAHAMTOBI
ASANDROGERINFANTCHILDRENOFTHEAFORESAIDWEREALSODEADANDBURIEDANDTHATTHEDARKFLATWIL
DERNESSBEYONDTHECHURCHYARDINTERSECTEDWITHDYKESANDMOUNDSANDGATESWITHSCATTEREDCATT
LEFEEDINGONITWASTHEMARSHESANDTHATTHELOWLEADENLINEBEYONDWASTHERIVERANDTHATTHEDIST
ANTSAVAGELAIRFROMWHICHTHEWINDWASRUSHINGWASTHESEAANDTHATTHESMALLBUNDLEOFSHIVERSGR
OWINGAFRAIDOFITALLANDBEGINNINGTOCRYWASPIP

I wrote the program below, and used its output sorted by the 4th column (using the "sort" command) to help getting the key length. The 1st and 2nd column tell the letter and its position, respectively.
dude you cheated with a program, come on. That takes all the fun and the skill out of it. Decoding it with a program is like not decoding it at all. Do you know how to decode a vigenere without using a program?
 
  • #16
You mean, measuring the distance between similar groups, and taking the GCD as a candidate for the key length. In this case, I thought it was more interesting to relate the solving to letter frequencies. It's not a brute force attack, which would be impractically long. How would you calculate letter frequencies for a substitution cypher without a program, for example?
 
  • #17
Dodo said:
You mean, measuring the distance between similar groups, and taking the GCD as a candidate for the key length. In this case, I thought it was more interesting to relate the solving to letter frequencies. It's not a brute force attack, which would be impractically long. How would you calculate letter frequencies for a substitution cypher without a program, for example?

Oh well its quite easy you just count the letters. Are you saying you just used the program to save time? Can you provide the link to the program you used, the black chamber program doesn't work on this cypher becuz it has symbols. After you gathered up the frequency then how did you solve it?
 
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  • #18
The program is attached on post #14. It produces some output, which has to be sorted afterwards by column #4. The first 10 lines of the output, after sorting, are:
Code: 
P 2 6   0.80604 0.69821
E 3 9   0.81012 0.65658
E 0 3   0.82585 0.76514
C 10 12 0.88765 0.76796
X 1 6   0.88835 0.79568
C 4 6   0.91278 0.93505
E 3 6   0.94524 1.06175
E 6 9   0.96027 0.87800
E 3 18  0.97258 0.77753
T 5 6   1.02209 0.80147
...
Column #3 is the key length. You can see an abundance of 6 for column #3 on these first lines, as well as other multiples of 6. Column #2 is the letter position (for length=6, position=0..5), so the key EXPECT pops out immediately.

The 4th column, the one you use to sort (the one which is small on good candidates) is the sum of errors between (a) the letter frequencies in English and (b) the letter frequencies in the text for that letter, position and length. The lesser the error, the better the candidate.
 
  • #19
Dodo said:
The program is attached on post #14. It produces some output, which has to be sorted afterwards by column #4. The first 10 lines of the output, after sorting, are:
Code: 
P 2 6   0.80604 0.69821
E 3 9   0.81012 0.65658
E 0 3   0.82585 0.76514
C 10 12 0.88765 0.76796
X 1 6   0.88835 0.79568
C 4 6   0.91278 0.93505
E 3 6   0.94524 1.06175
E 6 9   0.96027 0.87800
E 3 18  0.97258 0.77753
T 5 6   1.02209 0.80147
...
Column #3 is the key length. You can see an abundance of 6 for column #3 on these first lines, as well as other multiples of 6. Column #2 is the letter position (for length=6, position=0..5), so the key EXPECT pops out immediately.

The 4th column, the one you use to sort (the one which is small on good candidates) is the sum of errors between (a) the letter frequencies in English and (b) the letter frequencies in the text for that letter, position and length. The lesser the error, the better the candidate.
I am assuming that in your post p26,e39 and ect. are commonly found trigrams or three letter combos. But what are the decimal numbers for that are parallel to the trigrams? Shouldn't their abundance and space apart be represented by whole numbers? Could you have been able to gather these numbers without the software?
 
Last edited:
  • #20
Does anyone understand how to decode the vinegre cypher?
 
  • #21
No one has a clue how to decode the vinegre cypher?
 
  • #22
TXOIDSMZIG
RQZGIISISW
SMZTTSLOTR
HQYVTTIIRL
DXPTSHWZJR
GFJGJTHXCW

I think the kw is 5 letters long,
I've tried a bunch of ways but am stuck, help?
 
  • #23
A challenge!

See if u can decipher this famous phrase you need a (SKELETON) KEYtext for it

125 112 223 218 145 114 246 128 148 212 533 335
 
  • #24
Hi guys, if you want to play with a cipher I invite you to this website:
http://toolpaq.com/en/cipher/
there is a prize for beating the cipher.
Have fun! :-)
 
  • #25
Hey everyone..I got something for you..I got some numbers..The open one is "2626481000" and it's close is "12122314442323121222" i mean the firts one is open form and the second one is secret/closed form..
I need the secret/closed form of "3124685300"
 

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