Dark matter as matter in parallel universes

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The discussion explores the hypothesis that dark matter could be matter from parallel universes, suggesting that gravitational effects from these universes might be felt in our own without direct interaction. It emphasizes that dark matter does not interact well with itself, which is a key distinction from normal matter, as it would otherwise lose energy and clump together under gravity. Observations, such as those from the Bullet Cluster, support the idea that dark matter passes through other matter without significant interaction, aligning with the proposed model of multiple universes. The conversation raises questions about the nature of dark matter and its potential connections to other universes, while also addressing the limitations of this hypothesis. Overall, the idea remains speculative and has not been widely accepted or explored in depth within the scientific community.
  • #61


twofish-quant said:
You give up too easily.

One thing that also occurs to me is what happens if there is a sudden loss of consciousness. I go in for an operation, and they put me under, and my consciousness is zero. In one world, a cosmic ray causes the surgeon to mess up and I die on the table and never wake up. In another world, everything goes fine.

So what do I experience?
Eh, I suppose that might fit the thought experiment. But that is extraordinarily contrived, and not at all a situation that anybody experiences, at least not to a degree that makes any sort of difference to anybody.

twofish-quant said:
Almost entirely != entirely.

Also we do not know how cell activity gives rise to consciousness. One thing that bothers me is that I go to sleep at night. I lose consciousness, in the morning I wake up, and I'm not someone else (or am I?) That's always bothered me.
What we do know, however, is that consciousness arises through the collective action of large numbers of neurons. That collective action is guaranteed to make the system even more classical.

twofish-quant said:
If it's far away then it happened in the past, and if it happened in the past, then it likely kept me from existing in the first place.
Again, speed of light. Such a change cannot propagate faster, and would most likely propagate slower.

twofish-quant said:
Why should we assume that causality holds?
It holds within our space-time. The speed of light may be different within the new region generated by the change in the fundamental laws, but that can't affect things until the region expands.

twofish-quant said:
What could be happening is that MWI causes vast number of acausal universes to come into being, but I don't notice any of them, because consciousness requires causality to function, and in the acausal universes, I cease to exist.
Well, there is actually some work that is sort of kinda similar to this, in that only certain subsets of the full quantum wavefunction are stable.

twofish-quant said:
Our universe isn't that big. Also, right now we are in the realm of gut feeling, and I'd like to get numbers.
It is for the purpose of this kind of thought experiment.

twofish-quant said:
Let me tell you one reason why I find the concept of parallel worlds weird.
Lots and lots of things about modern physics are weird.

twofish-quant said:
Suppose you have a benevolent, hyperintelligent being named Fred. Now suppose Fred likes me. Fred is likes me enough so that Fred is annoyed that I end up dying so he wants to do something about that. So Fred takes some matter and randomly rearranges it. You can calculate how long it will take before that random matter ends up with me. Now if you have one universe, the stars will burn out and the universe will suffer heat death before that happens.

However, let's assume that MWI is right and you have multiple universes. In each universe Fred randomally rearranges atoms. You can mathematically show that in those universes, I'm going to pop out. Fred is systematically going through all combinations of organic molecules, and in one of them, I'm going to come out of the machine.
Well, yeah, but the number of worlds where you don't pop out is so unbelievably numerous compared to the number of worlds where you do that Fred would have to be positively insane to bother.

twofish-quant said:
OK. Someone else is going to work out the theological implications. But my point is that if you accept MWI as true then you expand the universe enough so that in one of the universes Fred is wandering around with pearly gates and being with wings and halos reserruecting people from the dead.
Well, no, because MWI only predicts that all possible outcomes occur. We can imagine plenty of things that aren't possible, and don't even yet know how to describe all of what is and is not possible.
 
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  • #62


Chalnoth said:
Eh, I suppose that might fit the thought experiment. But that is extraordinarily contrived, and not at all a situation that anybody experiences, at least not to a degree that makes any sort of difference to anybody.

Ummmm... I don't think it's very contrived.

At some point in my life, there is a very good chance that I will go into surgery with zero consciousness under some situation in which there is a good chance that I won't make it through do to quantum events.

In fact, the fact that I'm going to find out what happens soon enough is why I'm not in a hurry to do the experiment. Also, "what does it feel like to die?" is something that makes a great difference to a lot of people.
What we do know, however, is that consciousness arises through the collective action of large numbers of neurons. That collective action is guaranteed to make the system even more classical.

Not necessarily. Superconductors are a good example in which collective action of large numbers of atoms makes the system *less* classical. Ferromagnetism is another example where large numbers of atoms makes the system *less* classical. There are probably a dozen other examples that condensed matter people can come up with. You can argue that those aren't directly relevant, and I think you would be right, but they are examples where you can't just say "lots of moving parts -> more classical". In those examples "lots of moving parts -> less classical."

Well, yeah, but the number of worlds where you don't pop out is so unbelievably numerous compared to the number of worlds where you do that Fred would have to be positively insane to bother.

Fred loves me a lot. Also if you are in a situation in which psychological arguments are considered valid, then you are pretty firmly in the realm of theologists.

Well, no, because MWI only predicts that all possible outcomes occur.

And what's impossible about a hyperintelligent being with pearly gates and angels? Think of it as a parallel universe mega-Disneyland. Doesn't violate any law of physics I can see.

The thing about MWI, is that if you assume there is only one universe, then most possible things will not occur. If you have MWI, then anything that is possible will occur, and I just have to show that creating a parallel universe mega-Disneyland with fun rides for people that have been good isn't physically impossible and it will happen.

This matters because the barriers against raising the dead are thermodynamic and there are no really physics barriers against "practical immortality." Once you have MWI, you there are thermodynamic implications.

We can imagine plenty of things that aren't possible, and don't even yet know how to describe all of what is and is not possible.

However, if you have parallel universes, you remove a lot of the computational restrictions on what is possible. For example, if I give you a 1024-bit number it may well be mathematically impossible to factor before the universe suffers heat death. If you have MWI, then it's trivial to show that in some universe, someone will successfully factor that number, and in fact people are using that fact for quantum cryptography.

You have a nanobot create an android and then through some quantum process, run through all possible memories for that android.

Again, this isn't to say that MWI is right or wrong. But I think you can very much argue that if MWI is right then a lot of interesting conclusions follow.
 
  • #63


twofish-quant said:
Ummmm... I don't think it's very contrived.

At some point in my life, there is a very good chance that I will go into surgery with zero consciousness under some situation in which there is a good chance that I won't make it through do to quantum events.
Um, it's extraordinarily unlikely that you'll find yourself in a situation where you are unconscious and your life or death will depend upon quantum events. Remember that the regime at which quantum effects are important is extremely low temperatures or very small systems (on the order of hundreds of atoms). Because of this, the system would have to be explicitly set up to depend upon measurements of a carefully-prepared quantum system. So yes, extremely contrived and not applicable to reality.

twofish-quant said:
Not necessarily. Superconductors are a good example in which collective action of large numbers of atoms makes the system *less* classical. Ferromagnetism is another example where large numbers of atoms makes the system *less* classical. There are probably a dozen other examples that condensed matter people can come up with. You can argue that those aren't directly relevant, and I think you would be right, but they are examples where you can't just say "lots of moving parts -> more classical". In those examples "lots of moving parts -> less classical."
Not in the sense of quantum superpositions being an important aspect of the phenomena, which is all that is relevant for this kind of issue.

twofish-quant said:
Fred loves me a lot. Also if you are in a situation in which psychological arguments are considered valid, then you are pretty firmly in the realm of theologists.
Uh, what?

twofish-quant said:
The thing about MWI, is that if you assume there is only one universe, then most possible things will not occur. If you have MWI, then anything that is possible will occur, and I just have to show that creating a parallel universe mega-Disneyland with fun rides for people that have been good isn't physically impossible and it will happen.

This matters because the barriers against raising the dead are thermodynamic and there are no really physics barriers against "practical immortality." Once you have MWI, you there are thermodynamic implications.
This kind of objection doesn't make any sense. Probabilities within MWI strictly adhere to the Born Rule, so even if you can suppose that some seemingly weird thing might exist, the probability of you finding yourself in that world is so unbelievably minuscule that it is irrelevant.
 
  • #64


Chalnoth said:
Um, it's extraordinarily unlikely that you'll find yourself in a situation where you are unconscious and your life or death will depend upon quantum events. Remember that the regime at which quantum effects are important is extremely low temperatures or very small systems (on the order of hundreds of atoms).

Very strongly disagree.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardware_random_number_generator

Shot noise is a quantum phenomenon, and you can imagine a situation in which a resistor that is near tolerance fails or doesn't fail due to the current flow. For that matter you can have a situation in which a resistor fails or doesn't fail because a cosmic ray does or doesn't hit a critical item. The reason I'm under the knife in the first place may be because I was near a piece of uranium that did or did not emit an alpha particle that did or did not knock out a critical piece of DNA, that did or did not cause things to be cancerous.

Because of this, the system would have to be explicitly set up to depend upon measurements of a carefully-prepared quantum system. So yes, extremely contrived and not applicable to reality.

Not hard. Happens all of the time. You have a resistor that is about to burn out. The shot noise either puts the current over or under the limit. In one universe, it goes over, resistor burns out. Distracts the surgeon, I die.

Also it's not hard to make it happen. That's the cool thing about the Android app that I'm working on. I use a hardware random number generator to flip a coin based on quantum principles. In one universe, I go to the park and nothing happens. In another universe, I end up in a busy intersection where I get hit by a bus.

This isn't a hard experiment.

Not in the sense of quantum superpositions being an important aspect of the phenomena, which is all that is relevant for this kind of issue.

The problem here is that if you accept MWI, the wave function is *always* in a state of superposition. With Copenhagen and anything else, the wave functions collapses, the superposition disappears. With MWI, the superposition *doesn't* disappear after you do the measurement. It's just that the outcome of that measurement are in different universes which you don't notice.

So if you accept MWI, quantum superpositions are always important because they don't disappear after you do the experiment.

Part of the problem here is that the talk of quantum consciousness has been dominated by Roger Penrose, and it's pretty easy to show that his ideas are wrong. But superposition is not the only quantum effect, and even thought the electrons in my computer or a laser are nicely collapsed, quantum effects are important in both of them.

The reason this matters is that there is one missing part of MWI which is the fact that I don't feel the universe splitting. I hit my hardware random number generator. It tells me to eat steak instead of salmon, but MWI says that somewhere else there is a different me that got told to eat salmon instead of steak. Quantum suicide and immortality are ideas that try to figure out what is going on. They might be wrong, but it's not an issue that is irrelevant, and you just can't around the problem by doing what you are doing by saying that the problem doesn't matter.

I seriously doubt that my brain doesn't have some quantum noise in it, but since I'm not a neuroscientist, let's say that you are right and my brain is completely deterministic. So I couple it with a source of quantum noise, and which you can't say that the experiment is irrelevant. I write an app on my phone that flips a quantum mechanical coin, and use it to make daily decisions. At some point, the phone will make some sort of decision that will either increase or decrease my lifespan.

Uh, what?

If you say that Fred would have to be insane to do X, Y, and Z, you are making statements about Fred assuming that Fred has pseudo-human motivations, at which people you are using the thought processes that theologians use to make statements about what Fred will do or what Fred won't do.

This kind of objection doesn't make any sense. Probabilities within MWI strictly adhere to the Born Rule, so even if you can suppose that some seemingly weird thing might exist, the probability of you finding yourself in that world is so unbelievably minuscule that it is irrelevant.

I'm not objecting. MWI implies that there is version of reality in which a mega-intelligence has created a uber-version of Disneyland. That doesn't particularly bother me.

Personally, I think it would be cool if MWI was right and there are parallel universes. I've got a lot of questions about the universe, and I'm looking forward to meeting Fred.

Richard Dawkins might not like some of the implications but that's his problem.

Finding yourself in a highly improbable universe is not irrelevant if in the other universes you don't exist at all. That's the whole point of the anthropic principle. If may be highly improbable that after you die you end up in some sort of mega-Disneyland (if you've been good), but if you run the numbers, I don't think that it's that much less likely than the odds that you were born in the first place.

Also, I'm showing a bit of my inner crackpot here. He looks and sounds a lot like Frank Tipler, and I keep my inner crackpot under control by telling it that all he has to do is to wait a few decades and see what happens.
 
  • #65


mrspeedybob said:
If what we call dark matter is normal matter that exists in 100 different universes then it should not be expected to interact very strongly with itself. For 2 particles to collide they would have to be in the same universe and with 100 different universes there is only a 1% chance of that. I don't know how weakly dark matter interacts with itself but you can pick a number of universes to match whatever level of interaction there is.

It makes sense for me and it may be a verifiable idea; the number of contributing universes should be huge so, according to this idea dark matter should not manifest interaction at all if the event in our universe is low probable event so in majority other universes such event did not take place or has a wide range of different patterns. One problem, it is tricky to find the low probable event at cosmic scale ;o)
 
  • #66


ryan_m_b said:
...
Your parallel universe idea basically requires the existence of dark matter anyway yet with the added complexity of being in another universe.

But that is nothing in comparison with the added complexity of making the "one universe" cosmology fit with the rest of astronomical and cosmological data, such as lop-sided particle-physics laws, dark energy that implies that the cosmological constant isn't even constant, etc, etc, not to mention the non-discovery of dark-matter particles.
 
  • #67


DavidMcC said:
But that is nothing in comparison with the added complexity of making the "one universe" cosmology fit with the rest of astronomical and cosmological data, such as lop-sided particle-physics laws, dark energy that implies that the cosmological constant isn't even constant, etc, etc, not to mention the non-discovery of dark-matter particles.
What are you going on about? There is no evidence as of yet that the cosmological constant isn't constant, and dark matter is expected to be extremely hard to detect, so it's hardly a surprise we haven't yet.
 
  • #68


DavidMcC said:
But that is nothing in comparison with the added complexity of making the "one universe" cosmology fit with the rest of astronomical and cosmological data, such as lop-sided particle-physics laws, dark energy that implies that the cosmological constant isn't even constant, etc, etc, not to mention the non-discovery of dark-matter particles.

I was under the impression the cosmoloigcal contant is theoretically constant. It is not temporally constant (ie: it changes over time) but is spatially constant.
 
  • #69


DavidMcC said:
But that is nothing in comparison with the added complexity of making the "one universe" cosmology fit with the rest of astronomical and cosmological data, such as lop-sided particle-physics laws, dark energy that implies that the cosmological constant isn't even constant, etc, etc, not to mention the non-discovery of dark-matter particles.

I strongly suspect that this isn't the case, and if you get a multiple universe theory to the point where you can fit the data, then it will be as complex if not more complex than what we have now. If you have a complex theory, then adding universes to the theory makes things more complex and not less complex.

I'd be interested in hearing why you would think otherwise.
 
  • #70


How can a multiple universe theory of dark matter POSSIBLY be LESS complex? You'll need to include all of the elements of the a one-universe cosmology, and in addition you have to figure out how two spatially and temporally separated bubbles interact in what seems like a pretty uniform manner. Seems a bit mad to me as a matter of fact, and again, against the spirit of a multiverse if not every possible practice of one.
 
  • #71


Chalnoth said:
What are you going on about? There is no evidence as of yet that the cosmological constant isn't constant, and dark matter is expected to be extremely hard to detect, so it's hardly a surprise we haven't yet.

This, for example:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/4787671/The-Cosmological-Constant-and-Dark-Energy"
"... This alleviates the classical problem of the curious energy scale of order a millielectronvolt associated with a constant lambda."
 
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  • #72


Cosmo Novice said:
I was under the impression the cosmoloigcal contant is theoretically constant. It is not temporally constant (ie: it changes over time) but is spatially constant.
The cosmological constant is constant in both time and space. Perhaps you were thinking of the misnamed Hubble constant?
 
  • #73


DavidMcC said:
This, for example:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/4787671/The-Cosmological-Constant-and-Dark-Energy"
"... This alleviates the classical problem of the curious energy scale of order a millielectronvolt associated with a constant lambda."
There are indeed many speculative alternatives to the cosmological constant that vary in time. But there is as yet no evidence of time-variation of dark energy. And the "fine tuning" argument here is a non-argument because the anthropic selection effect guarantees that the cosmological constant be small anyway.
 
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  • #74


twofish-quant said:
I strongly suspect that this isn't the case, and if you get a multiple universe theory to the point where you can fit the data, then it will be as complex if not more complex than what we have now. If you have a complex theory, then adding universes to the theory makes things more complex and not less complex.

I'd be interested in hearing why you would think otherwise.

"Smolin-esque" LQG-based BH cosmology only requires a few reasonable additions to at least provide a framework for making sense of what is otherwise just bizarre. (The main one is that "space-loops" are only linked within a space that is generated from the collapse of a single body, and that may already have been in Smolin's own version.) I've listed the rest several times before on this and other sites. The pro-matter, ant-anti-matter bias of the universe is one, as it suggests that what banged was somehow contaminated, as if having been condensed previously from part of a previous, much bigger universe. The apparent "fine-tuning" of the laws to the possibility of abiogenesis is another - this is the only way we might find ourselves in a universe in which the fundamental constants were just so, otherwise it would have to have been extraordinary lucky.
Etc.
 
  • #75


Chalnoth said:
There are indeed many speculative alternatives to the cosmological constant that vary in time. But there is as yet no evidence of time-variation of dark energy. And the "fine tuning" argument here is a non-argument because the anthropic selection effect guarantees that the cosmological constant be small anyway.

You probably just ignore the evidences, in fact there are plenty experimental data supporting non-constant agenda. Specifically, the varying "alpha" has been reported for 15+ years, the recent report (see below) for the spatial alpha anisotropy explains the inconsistencies of previous reports.

Refs:
arxiv.org/abs/1008.3907: Evidence For Spatial Variation Of The fiFine
Structure Constant
arxiv.org/abs/1008.3957: Manifestations Of A Spatial Variation Of
Fundamental Constants On Atomic Clocks, Oklo,
The popular overview:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/09/100909004112.htm

BTW, the dark matter flow correlates with alpha gradient (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_flow)

Stefan
 
  • #76


I was under the impression that 'Dark Flow' is at the level of, "might be something, might be an irregularity on the image."? It seems everyone uses this one to justify some claim, from colliding universes and more. In terms of established science, you seem to be going on with a bit of nonsense there stefanbanev, or at least grossly overreaching.

@DavidMcC: Or, while I don't believe this, the 'eternal inflationists' could be right and we're part of an infinite set of universes, no more or less unique than any other part of an infinite grouping. When there is NOTHING to point one way or another, what is the point in all of this?
 
  • #77


stefanbanev said:
You probably just ignore the evidences, in fact there are plenty experimental data supporting non-constant agenda. Specifically, the varying "alpha" has been reported for 15+ years, the recent report (see below) for the spatial alpha anisotropy explains the inconsistencies of previous reports.

Refs:
arxiv.org/abs/1008.3907: Evidence For Spatial Variation Of The fiFine
Structure Constant
arxiv.org/abs/1008.3957: Manifestations Of A Spatial Variation Of
Fundamental Constants On Atomic Clocks, Oklo,
The popular overview:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/09/100909004112.htm

BTW, the dark matter flow correlates with alpha gradient (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_flow)

Stefan
Um, that's a completely separate issue from the cosmological constant. \alpha and \Lambda are completely different parameters.

But it's largely shown to be bunk.

The basic idea behind the varying alpha is that if the fine structure constant were to vary, then atoms would not just have redshifted or blueshifted spectra, but the entire pattern of spectral lines changes, especially for heavier atoms. So the experimental team looked for these changes in the patterns of the more massive elements, such as Carbon and Oxygen, in distant quasars. The difficulty here is that the signatures of these elements are really, really faint, so they can only barely see them against the background. And the spectral signatures of these elements are also quite complex, with lots and lots of spectral lines, so that it's not at all clear which line belongs to which atom.

So, in the end, it turns out that they're just fitting the background noise. This is supported by the fact that there is no consistency between the measurements of \alpha between different quasars, and different experimental teams trying to replicate their results have come up with completely different results.
 
  • #78


Cosmo Novice said:
I was under the impression the cosmoloigcal contant is theoretically constant. It is not temporally constant (ie: it changes over time) but is spatially constant.

Chalnoth said:
The cosmological constant is constant in both time and space. Perhaps you were thinking of the misnamed Hubble constant?

Cosmo Novice, perhaps you were thinking of

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=3330035#post3330035.

Or did you really mean the cosmological constant?
 
  • #79


Chalnoth> But it's largely shown to be bunk.

Please be more specific; is it shown by whom (reference please)?

Chalnoth> So, in the end, it turns out that they're
Chalnoth> just fitting the background noise.

No offence, but may you buck it by something more tangible then just your opinion?

Regards,
Stefan
 
  • #80


stefanbanev said:
Chalnoth> But it's largely shown to be bunk.

Please be more specific; is it shown by whom (reference please)?

Chalnoth> So, in the end, it turns out that they're
Chalnoth> just fitting the background noise.

No offence, but may you buck it by something more tangible then just your opinion?

Regards,
Stefan
It's backed up by their very own work:
http://arxiv.org/abs/1008.3907

We previously reported observations of quasar spectra from the Keck telescope suggesting a smaller value of the fine structure constant, alpha, at high redshift. A new sample of 153 measurements from the ESO Very Large Telescope (VLT), probing a different direction in the universe, also depends on redshift, but in the opposite sense, that is, alpha appears on average to be larger in the past.
Inconsistent results are a hallmark of badly-done science.
 
  • #82


Chalnoth said:
Inconsistent results are a hallmark of badly-done science.

Thanks for reference, it's not 100% definitive but clearly supports your position.

Stefan
 
  • #83


stefanbanev said:
Thanks for reference, it's not 100% definitive but clearly supports your position.

Stefan

It's not 100%, but it's pretty fat nail in that coffin. A lot of the "Dark" stuff other than matter is used to justify any number of pet theories; tread with care.
 
  • #84


Misericorde said:
It's not 100%, but it's pretty fat nail in that coffin. A lot of the "Dark" stuff other than matter is used to justify any number of pet theories; tread with care.

It's very true. I'm bias for any experimental evidence for "multiverse" support because it's its weakest spot. I still think that the traditional scientific method should work for such "metaphysics" frontier even it may be flexed quite a bit. The proposed "statistical" methods are indirect and prone to interpretations; therefore, those direct observation for alpha appeals a lot...
 
  • #85


stefanbanev said:
It's very true. I'm bias for any experimental evidence for "multiverse" support because it's its weakest spot. I still think that the traditional scientific method should work for such "metaphysics" frontier even it may be flexed quite a bit. The proposed "statistical" methods are indirect and prone to interpretations; therefore, those direct observation for alpha appeals a lot...
I was pretty excited about it the first time I heard about it too. I've just become a bit jaded after learning more about it.
 
  • #86


Chalnoth said:
I was pretty excited about it the first time I heard about it too. I've just become a bit jaded after learning more about it.

I'd agree with that; it's hard not to become enamored with these ideas, but it's also hard not to fall out of love with them given time and reading. It's one of the joys of science that you get these amazing concepts to bat around, but the other side is the need for rigor. Without any hope of falsification or validation, someday yah just got to move on I guess. I don't feel that physics has given us a handle on the nature of existence, just what it's meant to do: help us understand how the slice of reality we deal with operates, by what rules, and what constants exist. The how and why of it all seems to be an eternal question that is always, "just around the corner," and never is.
 
  • #87


@DavidMcC: Or, while I don't believe this, the 'eternal inflationists' could be right and we're part of an infinite set of universes, no more or less unique than any other part of an infinite grouping. When there is NOTHING to point one way or another, what is the point in all of this?

I am not an "eternal inflationist" either, but I 've posted a lot in various threads about "what the point of all this is". In a nutshell, laws of physics that don't seem quite right - that look as if they're the product of interaction within a multiverse that can only be detected through gravity, but not light (expalining also why a lot of people discount the idea - you know, the "if you can't see it with light, it isn't there" attitude).
 
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  • #88


DavidMcC said:
I am not an "eternal inflationist" either, but I 've posted a lot in various threads about "what the point of all this is". In a nutshell, laws of physics that don't seem quite right - that look as if they're the product of interaction within a multiverse that can only be detected through gravity, but not light (expalining also why a lot of people discount the idea - you know, the "if you can't see it with light, it isn't there" attitude).

The laws of physics seem just fine, but our understanding of them leaves something to be desired. Why is that surprising, and why do you think the solution is anything other than the natural evolution of existing theories and development of new ones? Where does metaphysics enter the picture except to make people feel comfy or entertained while the real work of progress in the understanding of nature moves forward?
 
  • #89


Misericorde said:
The laws of physics seem just fine, but our understanding of them leaves something to be desired. Why is that surprising, and why do you think the solution is anything other than the natural evolution of existing theories and development of new ones? Where does metaphysics enter the picture except to make people feel comfy or entertained while the real work of progress in the understanding of nature moves forward?

They may seem "fine" to you, misericode, but I have noticed that some of them lack the simplicity and symmetry that one might expect of a universe made in the conventional way. Eg, there shouldn't have been an excess of matter over anti-matter, etc (as I've listed before). One example of "fine" is E=Mc^2, but most other physics looks dodgy, and that includes GR+ (ie, GR with the CC). Various aspects of cosmology, including dark matter, inflation, the existence of life, etc (I've listed them before), suggest that, even though we don't see other big bangs with light, they must have occurred in any case, and set up a situation in which we observe their interactions with each other, then struggle to fit them into a theory that denies their existence. Thus, I think understanding nature will only move forward when we stop denying that a big bang, as a natural process, must have happened randomly many times, and not in a neat serial row.
EDIT: In other words, I think it is absurd to dismiss the Smolin's LQG as meer metaphysics. Rather it is the "head in the sand" attitude to the multiple challenges to "one universe" that is the problem, generating all kinds of bizarre "explanations".
 
  • #90


DavidMcC said:
They may seem "fine" to you, misericode, but I have noticed that some of them lack the simplicity and symmetry that one might expect of a universe made in the conventional way. Eg, there shouldn't have been an excess of matter over anti-matter, etc (as I've listed before). One example of "fine" is E=Mc^2, but most other physics looks dodgy, and that includes GR+ (ie, GR with the CC). Various aspects of cosmology, including dark matter, inflation, the existence of life, etc (I've listed them before), suggest that, even though we don't see other big bangs with light, they must have occurred in any case, and set up a situation in which we observe their interactions with each other, then struggle to fit them into a theory that denies their existence. Thus, I think understanding nature will only move forward when we stop denying that a big bang, as a natural process, must have happened randomly many times, and not in a neat serial row.
EDIT: In other words, I think it is absurd to dismiss the Smolin's LQG as meer metaphysics. Rather it is the "head in the sand" attitude to the multiple challenges to "one universe" that is the problem, generating all kinds of bizarre "explanations".

Uh huh, yet they predict and let us develop technology for all that it lacks the elegance you seem to want.
 

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