Dealing with inexperienced/overambitious members

[chiro]

Science requires a certain persistence, even at the undergraduate level. There is the temptation to just pat them on the head and let them figure it out on their own, but then they'll get to college and either realize that they're no closer to physics than an art major (which is typically devastating the few times I've witnessed it) or continue thinking they're the next Einstein and alienate everyone (like one guy who kept asking banal questions about string theory in an undergraduate mechanics class, sheesh).

You have brought up an important point with regard to education in high school as I have witnessed it during a practicum for teaching mathematics.

What I observed is that it was all about making the student feel good about themselves. The content was easy, and my supervisor kept telling me to make sure that the students really do feel good about themselves.

Encouragement is a good thing for anyone's personal development, but I'm afraid that if my experience is representative of many, then we are going to have some serious problems. People need both mistakes and victories, and if there is not a balance then people are either too sure of themselves, or completely unsure of themselves. I'd rather someone who was more unsure than sure, but I do agree that everyone needs to confident about some things.

It is work. Hard work. Physics is one of the hardest endeavors that humans undertake and any attempt to cover that up is just going to head to headaches and heartbreak later on. If you guys still want to attempt to encourage people without telling them the entire, grisly truth may I suggest a kind sticky and redirecting/locking any threads that don't even take the time to read the FAQ?

It seems that (and again this is a personal observation), that when we all hear about our heroes, whether it is a scientific one (Einstein, Dirac, Gauss, Mendel, Darwin, etc), a sportsperson (pick any popular sport), a businessperson (Gates, Ellison, etc) or otherwise, that we always see the end product, without the appreciation of the effort that it took to get there.

We all see a finished product, and not the story behind it. I think that this creates a lot of misconceptions about what it is to become something, because a lot of the time we focus on the victories and not the failures.

This is speculation, but I think that a lot of people get the idea that some of these people didn't make many mistakes, and therefore if they make a mistake, they think that something is wrong with them, because again, we only see the victories and not the mistakes that have been made, and this creates a certain type of culture which is potentially very damaging.

 

[Chronos]

I think we should always strive to teach, explain and inspire. I too have frowned when I've read posts (sometimes by mentors) that simply respond with "No, you are wrong". All answers should come with explanations and discussion.

The biggest frustration for me is when you get an arrogant poster who doesn't want to discuss science, they want you to list sciences that will make their fantasy possible. Here's a typical example I tend to engage in:

OP - When will nanotechnology allow us to live forever in machines?
Me - Nanotechnology is...nanotechnology is not...biological senescence...hard problem of consciousness...
OP - Ignoring all of that how long will it be?
Me - Predictions of unknown...discussion of current science...debunking of cranks...
OP - Scientists are so arrogant when they say things won't happen. You all once thought that humans couldn't fly too! Think of how much progress we've made in the last 50 years?

Very frustrating. I love teaching those who want to learn but unfortunately not all posters are like this.

Not all mentors are created equal.

 

[DoggerDan]

Notice how this revised response still manages to give realistic advice while remaining positive and not coming off as arrogant.

I do notice this, and agree your encouraging approach is far better than a condescending one. A laundry list of what to do probably doesn't help much, either. Sometimes, a simple "That's great! What's your next move?" is all that's needed for the person to search for, and find, what's required.

 

[kjohnson]

I have mixed opinions on this.
So overall, I have a mixed view. If people aren't faced with some reality their choice will be highly misinformed, whereas if their optimism is killed (even if in some ways it is "blind optimism") then maybe the person who should have been a scientist, didn't purely because they had a preconceived notion.

I agree. This is all I'm trying to say. Everyone will have their opinions and lean one way or another, but trying to be informative while still giving some positive feedback is like walking a tight rope. Its simply a balancing act and I think everyone would benefit (me included) from taking a second to glace at your post before hitting submit.

Also to all the people saying that people need to toughen up and learn to take negative criticism, this is true...BUT you never know how much impact one negative statement/response will have on a person. Maybe they are just in a bad mood at the time or maybe they have heard it other times from multiple people and your response is the "last straw" so to speak. You just never know.

Good post though. Lots of good ideas and opinions.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

I didn't say that, I just said that you have to be careful.

A lot of what scientific people call "cranks" and "crackpots" often use this strategy to argue their belief and I can wholeheartedly understand why people get turned off by these kind of responses.

Personally I get turned off by all the people that scream out to the public that they will go to hell and that Jesus will rise up and that 2012 will bring a comet and so on. The first time I may have had an open mind, but by the end I'm just so exhausted listening to them that I just think "ok" and shut off completely do focus on something else. The same sort of scenario you are describing happens in this context (and unfortunately many others).

Personally I think science is one of the best ideas we have, and by means did I intend to belittle it. It's better than priests deciding what is true or not, and also better than burning witches for some absolutely frivolous reason.

(Bold mine) Having an open mind means that you are willing to consider everything with the same standard. A lot of mentors cut people of as cranks and crackpots because they are, there is no other way of saying it. If someone comes to tell us that in his head he has come up with a theory of how the universe started and how it's going to end (a theory that's full of logical contradictions, nonsense words and has nothing to do with current science) it's perfectly acceptable to call ******** however any judgement must be backed up by an explanation. What we absolutely shouldn't do is just give the judgement or listen and encourage them in any way.

 

[Vanadium 50]

It may be that encouraging speculation amongst our younger members is good for them, but that does not mean that PF is the place for it - we have our rules on Overly Speculative Posts for a reason.

It may be that driving at highway speeds is an important skill for a new driver, but that does not mean he should be practicing that skill in a school zone.

 

[Fra]

I just think it is important to keep kids interested in science. Remember science is also meant to be fun! And when responses are written in such a blunt way, it can inadvertently push young minds away from the field.

I agree.

Constructive comments, and help reformulating the questions is better.

It's neither constructive nor pleasant (considering the social aspects) to just get to hear that you are wrong or way off or asking stupid questions. Suggestions, guidance or comments that makes your head spin rather than stop is better.

/Fredrik

 

[MissSilvy]

Can I at least suggest a separate subforum under Academic Guidance for people who are 16 and ready to go and disprove Einsteinian relativity? Academic Guidance is supposed to be:

Which college and degree? Grad school and PhD help

I miss not having to wade through loony middle- and high-schoolers to get to advice on making the transition from Griffiths E&M to Jackson's E&M or when looking for PGRE resources. I think this would alleviate most of the problem. Half of the blunt posts to 'inquisitve young minds' probably stem out of frustration of seeing the exact same posts over and over. That way, the people who would like to nurture and encourage our younger members have a place to do it and the people who don't can get away from it.

 

[DoggerDan]

It may be that encouraging speculation amongst our younger members is good for them, but that does not mean that PF is the place for it - we have our rules on Overly Speculative Posts for a reason.

It may be that driving at highway speeds is an important skill for a new driver, but that does not mean he should be practicing that skill in a school zone.

Are you saying you support a PhD-only website? How many folks might PF have left if that were implemented? I don't think many folks would be left.

If not, then those who're in the know will have to bear with those who are not. That includes guiding them/us onward.

 

[Fra]

I supposed in this discussion one should try to distinguish between

1. inexperienced individuals with a desired to learn and explore, but that aren't always able to formulate correct question and phrase things right - this category should not get blunt answers, should be encouraged and be given guidance.

2. crackpots, that think they've proven Einstein wrong etc... certainly many of these are ALSO inexperienced, but they seem to have a mindset that might not be right - we shouldn't encourage obvious crackpottery, they should work on their self-perception.

3. trolls, which obviously shouldn't be encouraged

Sometimes there are posts where there is someone of category 1 that tries to ask something and he get treated like a unworthy crackpot when it might just be that he was unable to phrase a better question.

Sometimes the two may be hard to distinguish, but often I think you can tell them apart.

/Fredrik

 

[Vanadium 50]

Are you saying you support a PhD-only website? How many folks might PF have left if that were implemented? I don't think many folks would be left.

No, I am suggesting that we all adhere to the PF Rules.

One of the main goals of PF is to help students learn the current status of physics as practiced by the scientific community; accordingly, Physicsforums.com strives to maintain high standards of academic integrity. There are many open questions in physics, and we welcome discussion on those subjects provided the discussion remains intellectually sound. It is against our Posting Guidelines to discuss, in the PF forums or in blogs, new or non-mainstream theories or ideas that have not been published in professional peer-reviewed journals or are not part of current professional mainstream scientific discussion. Non-mainstream or personal theories will be deleted. Unfounded challenges of mainstream science and overt crackpottery will not be tolerated anywhere on the site. Linking to obviously "crank" or "crackpot" sites is prohibited.