Density of matter in the expanding Universe

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the density of matter in the expanding Universe, exploring whether matter is being created at the same rate as the Universe expands, and the implications of this for gravitational fields within galactic structures. The conversation touches on theoretical concepts and historical models, including the steady state theory and modern cosmological views.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that as the Universe expands, the density of matter decreases, questioning if matter is being created at the same rate.
  • Others argue that matter is not being created and that the density of matter is indeed decreasing outside of bound systems, such as galactic clusters.
  • A participant references historical perspectives, noting that some physicists, including Hoyle, believed in matter creation to maintain constant mass density, which was linked to a philosophical commitment to a steady state Universe.
  • Another participant highlights that modern evidence supports a Universe that evolves over time, leading to a decrease in density, and asserts that local gravitational effects are not significantly impacted by cosmic expansion.
  • One participant mentions that conditions for matter creation existed only briefly in the early Universe, suggesting that no known processes could sustain a constant matter density, while also proposing that matter could hypothetically enter the Universe from 'outside' through mechanisms like wormholes, though this raises significant issues.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on whether matter is being created in the expanding Universe, with some asserting that it is not, while others reference historical models that suggested otherwise. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of these views on gravitational fields and the overall density of matter.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge limitations in understanding the processes of matter creation and the implications of cosmic expansion, with some assumptions about the nature of the Universe and its boundaries remaining unaddressed.

petrushkagoogol
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As I understand it, the Universe is red-shifted (emission spectra) from any point of reference looking outwards. The Universe is expanding, but is matter being created at the same rate ? Does this mean that the density of matter in space is decreasing ? (density = mass / volume). What does this imply for the gravitational field balance between it's galactic components ?
 
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petrushkagoogol said:
As I understand it, the Universe is red-shifted (emission spectra) from any point of reference looking outwards. The Universe is expanding, but is matter being created at the same rate ? Does this mean that the density of matter in space is decreasing ? (density = mass / volume). What does this imply for the gravitational field balance between it's galactic components ?
Matter is not being created. Why would it be? The density of matter is decreasing outside of bound systems (galactic clusters and smaller) inside of which there is no expansion.
 
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petrushkagoogol said:
As I understand it, the Universe is red-shifted (emission spectra) from any point of reference looking outwards. The Universe is expanding, but is matter being created at the same rate ?
Some famous physicists, including Hoyle, felt that matter should be being created as you suggest, so that the mass density could be conserved. But this is because they felt the universe should not evolve with time-- it should be in a "steady state." I think that sprung from a mostly philosophical commitment to the idea that the universe could not begin or end. But with the discovery of all kinds of evidence (including the cosmic microwave background) that the universe does change with time and did have an early state that was dense and hot, the steady state model has been abandoned in favor of one where the universe does have an origin and does drop in density with time. There is no important impact on galactic potentials, they come from their own local matter distributions that are not affected by the expansion-- the expansion is seen only between clusters of galaxies, on scales unbound by the gravity of local mass distributions.

By the way, modern views of the possibility of "universal inflation,", whereby baby universes are popping off all over the place in a vast universe that is otherwise in a steady state on the largest imaginable scales, are a kind of return to the steady-state model that Hoyle himself could not resist making comment on.
 
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The conditions necessary to originate matter [iow, to convert energy to matter, to be specific] only existed briefly and in the very early universe, therefore no known physical process could account for the matter creation rate necessary to maintain the universe in a state of constant matter density. The alternative to matter creation is for matter from 'outside' the universe to 'enter' it from 'elsewhere' [e.g., via wormholes or as a consequence of expansion]. But, any such explanation has some severe and rather obvious problems.
 

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