Derive the Lagrangian of a free nonrelativistic particle

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around deriving the Lagrangian of a free nonrelativistic particle using the variational principle and concepts of symmetry, particularly focusing on the implications of homogeneity in space and time. Participants explore the foundational aspects of the Lagrangian formulation without relying on Newton's laws, examining the conditions under which the Lagrangian can be expressed as a function of velocity.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that the Lagrangian for a free particle can be derived from Galileian invariance and the homogeneity of space and time, but express a desire for a rigorous proof rather than intuitive arguments.
  • One participant argues that if the Lagrangian is a function of position, velocity, and time, and if space is homogeneous, then the Lagrangian must not explicitly depend on position, leading to a conclusion that it can only depend on velocity.
  • Another participant challenges this reasoning, stating that the homogeneity of space is defined by the Lagrangian not containing position, which raises questions about the mathematical rigor of this definition.
  • There is a mention of Noether's theorem suggesting that the form of the Lagrangian is defined by symmetries, rather than being proven, indicating a relationship between symmetries and conservation laws.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the rigor of the arguments presented. While some accept the intuitive reasoning behind the Lagrangian's dependence on velocity, others seek a more mathematically rigorous foundation for the definitions of homogeneity and the implications for the Lagrangian's form. No consensus is reached on the necessity of a rigorous proof versus intuitive understanding.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the lack of a clear mathematical definition of homogeneity and the dependence of the discussion on intuitive arguments rather than formal proofs. The relationship between symmetries and the form of the Lagrangian remains an area of exploration without definitive conclusions.

cstalg
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As we know, the variational principle can be used as the fundamental principle of mechanics. Without knowing Newton's laws, the Lagrangian could be derived from symmetric consideration. As the simplest case, the Lagrangian of a free particle could be derived from Galileian invariance, or the homogeneity of space and time. But I never saw a rigrious proof. I think we just "guess" the form of the Lagrangian for some reason rather than prove it.
In Landau's famous "Mechanics", he said that the Lagragian of a free particle must be a function of v^2 only. This may be a cool argument of Landau's style, full of physics intuition, but not a rigrious proof. Is it possible to prove that "if space and time are homogeneous, the Lagrangian must be of the form L(v)+df(x,t)/dt"?
 
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cstalg said:
As we know, the variational principle can be used as the fundamental principle of mechanics. Without knowing Newton's laws, the Lagrangian could be derived from symmetric consideration. As the simplest case, the Lagrangian of a free particle could be derived from Galileian invariance, or the homogeneity of space and time. But I never saw a rigrious proof. I think we just "guess" the form of the Lagrangian for some reason rather than prove it.
In Landau's famous "Mechanics", he said that the Lagragian of a free particle must be a function of v^2 only. This may be a cool argument of Landau's style, full of physics intuition, but not a rigrious proof. Is it possible to prove that "if space and time are homogeneous, the Lagrangian must be of the form L(v)+df(x,t)/dt"?
The proof is very simple, and I believe Landau gives a rigorous proof. We first assume the Newton-Laplace Principle of Determinacy, which states that if the positions and velocities of all the particles in the system are known, the future motions of all these particles can be predicted. From this, we deduce that the Langrangian of any system can only be a function of position, velocity and time:L(\vec{x},\vec{v},t). If we assume that space is homogeneous, then the gradient of L (in other words, the partial derivative of L with respect to \vec{x} must be equal to zero. Therefore, L has no explicit dependence on position, and can thus only be a function of velocity and time. But due to the homogeneity of time, the partial derivative of L with respect to t is zero, and thus the Lagrangian can have no explicit dependence on time. Therefore, L can only be dependent on the velocity \vec{v}. But that is not enough to complete the proof. We also need to assume that space is isotropic, meaning that it does not change when you rotate it. As a consequence of this, the Lagrangian cannot depend on the direction of any vector, specifically the velocity vector. Therefore, we have proved that the Lagrangian can only depend on the magnitude of \vec{v}.
 
Thank you, lugita15.
But this is just the same as what Landau said, without more sophisticated details. We know that if L(\mathbf x+\delta \mathbf x, \mathbf v, t)-L(\mathbf x, \mathbf v, t)=df(\mathbf x,t)/dt, then we get the same equation of motion. So generally, the Lagrangian could be a function of x and t. But I come to realize that the homogeneity of x is "defined" to be that L does not contain x. This is just the same meaning as in the discussion of conservation laws.
Without the homogeneity being mathematically well-defined, we can not get a rigrious explanation.
 
cstalg said:
Thank you, lugita15.
But this is just the same as what Landau said, without more sophisticated details. We know that if L(\mathbf x+\delta \mathbf x, \mathbf v, t)-L(\mathbf x, \mathbf v, t)=df(\mathbf x,t)/dt, then we get the same equation of motion. So generally, the Lagrangian could be a function of x and t. But I come to realize that the homogeneity of x is "defined" to be that L does not contain x. This is just the same meaning as in the discussion of conservation laws.
Without the homogeneity being mathematically well-defined, we can not get a rigrious explanation.
As I said before, the mathematical definition of homogeneity of space is that the partial derivative of any (physically meaningful) quantity with respect to position is zero. Similarly, the definition of homogeneity of time is that the derivative of any (physically meaningful) quantity with respect to position is zero. This is a rigorous mathematical definition of homogeneity: the partial derivative with respect to the variable that is homogeneous must be equal to zero.
 
Yes, such properties are "suggested" by Noether's theorem. So the form of Lagrangian is defined, not proved. Also we need not define "any (physically meaningful) quantity" have such properties. All the other conservation laws are corollaries of certain symmetries of Lagrangian.
 

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