Lagrangian for a free particle

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the properties of Lagrangians in classical mechanics, specifically focusing on the implications of defining multiple Lagrangians that differ by a total derivative of a function. Participants explore the mathematical reasoning behind the claim that the partial derivative of the Lagrangian with respect to \( v^2 \) is independent of velocity, as well as the conditions under which this holds true.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that for two Lagrangians to be physically equivalent, the second term in the Taylor expansion must be a total derivative, which implies it must be at most linear in velocity.
  • Others question why the second term must be linear in velocity, seeking clarification on the reasoning behind this requirement.
  • A participant states that the term \( \frac{\partial L}{\partial v^2} \) is constant, suggesting that it does not depend on velocity, and thus \( L \propto v^2 \).
  • Another participant emphasizes that while a total derivative can be added to the Lagrangian, the function must depend only on position and time, leading to a linear relationship with velocity.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of the term \( \frac{\partial L}{\partial v^2} \) and its relationship to velocity. There is no consensus on whether this term is linear or constant, and the discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of these properties.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference specific mathematical expansions and properties of Lagrangians without reaching a definitive conclusion on the implications of these properties for the equations of motion.

RohanJ
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Discussion leading to Lagrangian for a free particle being (mv^2)/2
In Landau mechanics it's been given that multiple Lagrangians can be defined for a system which differ by a total derivative of a function.
This statement is further used for the following discussion.
IMG-20190531-WA0005.jpeg

I understand that the term for L has been expanded as a Taylor series but I can't understand the statement given just after that claims that partial derivative of L w.r.t v^2 is independent of the velocity.Can anyone lead me through it mathematically?
 

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We want ##L'## and ##L## to be physically equivalent, i.e., yielding the same equations of motion (EoM). For this to be true, the 2nd term in the Taylor-expanded Lagrangian must be a total derivative. That's only true if the term is at most linear in the velocity (do you understand why this is so?).

Since there's already a linear factor in that term, i.e., the ##v \cdot \epsilon##, the factor ##\partial L/\partial v^2## can't have any ##v## terms.

(I'll stop here for now, since I'm not quite sure which bit you're not understanding.)
 
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strangerep said:
We want ##L'## and ##L## to be physically equivalent, i.e., yielding the same equations of motion (EoM). For this to be true, the 2nd term in the Taylor-expanded Lagrangian must be a total derivative. That's only true if the term is at most linear in the velocity (do you understand why this is so?).

Since there's already a linear factor in that term, i.e., the ##v \cdot \epsilon##, the factor ##\partial L/\partial v^2## can't have any ##v## terms.

(I'll stop here for now, since I'm not quite sure which bit you're not understanding.)
I don't understand why the second term must be linear in velocity and the part after that.
 
It is easy to see that a Lagrangian
$$\tilde{L}(q,\dot{q},t)=L(q,\dot{q},t)+\frac{\mathrm{d}}{\mathrm{d} t} \Lambda(q,t)$$
gives precisely the same equations of motion as ##L##. To see this, note that
$$\frac{\mathrm{d}}{\mathrm{d} t} \Lambda(q,t) = \dot{q}^k \frac{\partial \Lambda}{\partial q^k} + \partial_t \Lambda.$$
From this you find
$$\frac{\partial}{\partial \dot{q}^k} \frac{\mathrm{d} \Lambda}{\mathrm{d} t} = \frac{\partial \Lambda}{\partial q^k}$$
and thus
$$\frac{\mathrm{d}}{\mathrm{d} t} \left (\frac{\partial}{\partial \dot{q}^k} \frac{\mathrm{d} \Lambda}{\mathrm{d} t} \right) = \frac{\mathrm{d}}{\mathrm{d} t} \frac{\partial \Lambda}{\partial q^k} = \dot{q}^j \frac{\partial^2 \Lambda}{\partial q^k \partial q^j} + \frac{\partial \partial_t \Lambda}{\partial q^k}.$$
On the other hand
$$\frac{\partial}{\partial q^k} \frac{\mathrm{d} \Lambda}{\mathrm{d} t}=\dot{q}^j \frac{\partial^2 \Lambda}{\partial q^j \partial q^k} + \frac{\partial \partial_t \Lambda}{\partial q^k}.$$
This implies that the Euler-Lagrange equations for
$$\Omega(q,\dot{q},t)=\frac{\mathrm{d}}{\mathrm{d} t} \Lambda(q,\dot{q},t),$$
i.e.,
$$\frac{\mathrm{d}}{\mathrm{d} t} \frac{\partial \Omega}{\partial \dot{q}^k}=\frac{\partial \Omega}{\partial q^k},$$
are fulfilled identically, and thus ##\tilde{L}## and ##L## lead to the same equations of motion through Hamilton's least-action principle.

The crucial point is that ##\Omega## is a total time derivative of a function, that only depends on ##q## and ##t## but NOT on ##\dot{q}##.
 
Last edited:
vanhees71 said:
It is easy to see that a Lagrangian
$$\tilde{L}(q,\dot{q},t)=L(q,\dot{q},t)+\frac{\mathrm{d}}{\mathrm{d} t} \Lambda(q,t)$$
gives precisely the same equations of motion as ##L##. To see this, note that
$$\frac{\mathrm{d}}{\mathrm{d} t} \Lambda(q,t) = \dot{q}^k \frac{\partial \Lambda}{\partial q^k} + \partial_t \Lambda.$$
From this you find
$$\frac{\partial}{\partial \dot{q}^k} \frac{\mathrm{d} \Lambda}{\mathrm{d} t} = \frac{\partial \Lambda}{\partial q^k}$$
and thus
$$\frac{\mathrm{d}}{\mathrm{d} t} \left (\frac{\partial}{\partial \dot{q}^k} \frac{\mathrm{d} \Lambda}{\mathrm{d} t} \right) = \frac{\mathrm{d}}{\mathrm{d} t} \frac{\partial \Lambda}{\partial q^k} = \dot{q}^j \frac{\partial^2 \Lambda}{\partial q^k \partial q^j} + \frac{\partial \partial_t \Lambda}{\partial q^k}.$$
On the other hand
$$\frac{\partial}{\partial q^k} \frac{\mathrm{d} \Lambda}{\mathrm{d} t}=\dot{q}^j \frac{\partial^2 \Lambda}{\partial q^j \partial q^k} + \frac{\partial \partial_t \Lambda}{\partial q^k}.$$
This implies that the Euler-Lagrange equations for
$$\Omega(q,\dot{q},t)=\frac{\mathrm{d}}{\mathrm{d} t} \Lambda(q,\dot{q},t),$$
i.e.,
$$\frac{\mathrm{d}}{\mathrm{d} t} \frac{\partial \Omega}{\partial \dot{q}^k}=\frac{\partial \Omega}{\partial q^k},$$
are fulfilled identically, and thus ##\tilde{L}## and ##L## lead to the same equations of motion through Hamilton's least-action principle.

The crucial point is that ##\Omega## is a total time derivative of a function, that only depends on ##q## and ##t## but NOT on ##\dot{q}##.
I understand that addition of a total time derivative does not affect the Euler Lagrange equation.
My question is in the discussion in Landau mechanics ,why does the second term of the taylor expansion being the total time derivative leads to the conclusion that ##∂L/∂v^2## is a linear function of velocity?
 
RohanJ said:
I understand that addition of a total time derivative does not affect the Euler Lagrange equation.
My question is in the discussion in Landau mechanics ,why does the second term of the taylor expansion being the total time derivative leads to the conclusion that ##∂L/∂v^2## is a linear function of velocity?
$$\frac{\partial L}{\partial v^2}$$ is not linear in velocity it's constant, that's why ##L\propto v^2##
 
Gaussian97 said:
$$\frac{\partial L}{\partial v^2}$$ is not linear in velocity it's constant, that's why ##L\propto v^2##
Sorry I made a mistake.I meant why the term containing ##∂L/∂v^2## or the "second term" i.e. ## 2v.e(∂L/∂v^2)## must be linear in velocity?
 
Well, as @vanhees71 said you can add a total derivative to your Lagrangian ##\frac{d}{dt}\Lambda##, but ##\Lambda## cannot be any function, must be function only of ##x## and ##t##. So then, using the chain rule, we have $$\frac{d}{dt}\Lambda=\frac{\partial \Lambda}{\partial x}\frac{d x}{d t}+\frac{\partial \Lambda}{\partial t}=v\frac{\partial \Lambda}{\partial x}+\frac{\partial \Lambda}{\partial t}$$.
So it's a linear term with the velocity.
 
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