Determining the number of degrees of freedom

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of degrees of freedom in a mechanical system, specifically focusing on the constraints and motions of segments connected by hinges. Participants explore the implications of rotational motion and the conditions under which vertical displacement is allowed.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about why there is still one degree of freedom in a specific case, questioning the simultaneous rotation of two segments and the vertical displacement of point B.
  • Another participant asks whether the sections of the system are allowed to bend and stretch, indicating a potential misunderstanding of the system's constraints.
  • Clarification is sought regarding the meaning of the circles representing rotational motion and the context of the problem, with one participant noting the importance of providing context for better assistance.
  • Participants discuss the definitions of variables: n as the degree of freedom, v as the number of constraints, and h as the degree of static determinacy, with some expressing confusion over the calculations and their implications.
  • One participant explains that the system consists of two bodies connected by an internal hinge, leading to a total degree of freedom of 6, while constraints are also calculated to be 6 based on the number of hinges.
  • There is a question about the interpretation of the cups at points A and C, with one participant suggesting they indicate possible senses of rotation.
  • Another participant questions how to deduce the sense of rotation from the cups, noting that both appear identical and raising concerns about the consistency of the conclusions drawn from the figures presented.
  • Discussion includes a query about the conditions under which vertical displacement of point B is allowed and whether this is contingent on the alignment of segments ab and bc.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various viewpoints and uncertainties regarding the definitions and implications of degrees of freedom, constraints, and the mechanics of the system. There is no clear consensus on the interpretations or calculations presented.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight potential ambiguities in the definitions of degrees of freedom and constraints, as well as the need for clearer context to understand the mechanical system being discussed. Some calculations and assumptions remain unresolved.

Amaelle
Messages
309
Reaction score
54
Good day
I have issue to understand why in the second case we still have 1 degree of freedom, because according to my understanding ( the circles for me represent the trajectory of the rotation of the two segment, and according to it the two segments can't rotate simultaneously. but according to the book , in the second case the vertical displacement of point B is a allowed?
any hints would be highly appreciated thanks!
 

Attachments

  • degree of freedom.png
    degree of freedom.png
    13.7 KB · Views: 715
Engineering news on Phys.org
Are the sections allowed to bend and stretch ?
 
BvU said:
Are the sections allowed to bend and stretch ?
I thought it was a mechanical engineering section, so any question regarding this topics should be accepted
 
The context eludes me. Both pictures have h = v - n = (2+2+2) - (3+3) = 0 as 'explaining' text !?
I also don't follow what the circles represent.
Amaelle said:
I thought it was a mechanical engineering section
If you don't know (and don't give more context), who does ?
so any question regarding this topics should be accepted
Ah, you mean the ME forum ? Yes, all and any question is Ok. But you can influence your chances to get sensible assistance by helping the helpers :smile:
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Amaelle
the circles represent rotational motion of the two segments around the hinges on points A and C, I have uploaded another picture to illustrate the point
motion.png
 

Attachments

  • motion.png
    motion.png
    8.2 KB · Views: 771
n represents the degree of freedom , v the number of constraint, and h is the degree of static determinacy,
 
Amaelle said:
the circles represent rotational motion
Ah, but in this second picture the axis of rotation is at the support points -- much more sensible
Amaelle said:
n represents the degree of freedom , v the number of constraint, and h is the degree of static determinacy
Confusion again. Probably n represents the number of degrees of freedom ? Of what ? Where does the 3+3 come from ?
v is the number of constraints. Fine. Of what ? Of points A, B and C ? Where does the 2+2+2 come from ?
I can guess, but you might clarify things first ...

I suppose a circle means a hinge -- what about the cups at A and C ?
 
Thanks Bvu for your prompt reply and sorry for all that troubles!
let me better explain: n explain the degree of freedoms, we have two bodies assembled via an internal hinge, so degree of freedom of the system is 3+3 =6
v is the number of constraints : we have two hinges and one internal hinges so the number of constraints is 2+2+2=6

As you might know the hinges only prevent horizontal and vertical displacement not rotation and the the rotation shown on the pic are the rotations around the hinges A and C,
Thanks!
 
BvU said:
I suppose a circle means a hinge -- what about the cups at A and C ?
 
  • #10
the cups means the possible sens of rotation
 
  • #11
How do you deduct a possible sense of rotation ? Both cups at A
upload_2017-12-10_22-20-0.png
and C
upload_2017-12-10_22-18-57.png
look the same to me
upload_2017-12-10_22-19-30.png
this being the one at C

( Maybe I gave them a wrong name ? half-circles ? )In both figures in post #1 they use the same n (3+3) and conclude the same h (0) in the captions.

Is there more to this than we assume so far ? Would the left figure upside down also conclude 'no rigid body motions' ?

In that case, where does the transition take place from 'no rigid body motions' to 'vertical displacement of point B is allowed!' ? only when ab and bc are prefectly aligned ? or in a region around that ? What can cause such a discontinuity ?
 

Attachments

  • upload_2017-12-10_22-18-48.png
    upload_2017-12-10_22-18-48.png
    376 bytes · Views: 585
  • upload_2017-12-10_22-18-57.png
    upload_2017-12-10_22-18-57.png
    376 bytes · Views: 491
  • upload_2017-12-10_22-19-30.png
    upload_2017-12-10_22-19-30.png
    979 bytes · Views: 501
  • upload_2017-12-10_22-20-0.png
    upload_2017-12-10_22-20-0.png
    324 bytes · Views: 485

Similar threads

  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
Replies
11
Views
2K
Replies
9
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
6K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
1K