Did a Stray Bullet on New Year's Eve Kill a Child at Church in Atlanta?

[rootX]

http://www.straightdope.com/columns...-into-the-air-kill-someone-when-it-comes-down
Straight Dope on falling bullets.

And from the CDC

http://www.cdc.gov/MMWR/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5350a2.htm
That's just in Puerto Rico. Falling bullets have long been known to be a danger and this sort of accident is not uncommon or unique. In fact, according to the CDC article, in Puerto Rico women and children are statistically more likely to be victims of "celebratory gunfire" than than any other sort of gunfire mishap.

Just so we are all on the same page and realize that this is a real problem and not some off chance occurrence.

celebratory gunfires are common in many other countries not just Puerto Rico. But, I wasn't aware of the danger.

 

[mgb_phys]

Again, though... don't ever fire a weapon unless you know exactly what is down-range.

A Fathers Advice

If a sportsman true you'd be
Listen carefully to me. . .

Never, never let your gun
Pointed be at anyone.
That it may unloaded be
Matters not the least to me.

When a hedge or fence you cross
Though of time it cause a loss
From your gun the cartridge take
For the greater safety's sake.

If twixt you and neighbouring gun
Bird shall fly or beast may run
Let this maxim ere be thine
"Follow not across the line."

Stops and beaters oft unseen
Lurk behind some leafy screen.
Calm and steady always be
"Never shoot where you can't see."


You may kill or you may miss
But at all times think this:
"All the pheasants ever bred
Won't repay for one man dead."

Mark Beaufoy - 1902

 

[Danger]

Cool poem, Mgb. That's a good way to get the point across in an entertaining manner.

 

[ideasrule]

I don't see how Mythbusters contradicts the confirmed cases in any way. Adam and Jamie specifically said that their experiments proved only that bullets fired STRAIGHT up are not lethal because they tumble, and that bullets fired at an angle are spin-stabilized, don't tumble, and are lethal.

 

[rolerbe]

I don't see how Mythbusters contradicts the confirmed cases in any way. Adam and Jamie specifically said that their experiments proved only that bullets fired STRAIGHT up are not lethal because they tumble, and that bullets fired at an angle are spin-stabilized, don't tumble, and are lethal.

Bullets fired at an angle also can retain much of their horizontal velocity when they again intersect the Earth (basic ballistics). They can be moving much faster (and so have much more energy) than simple terminal velocity from a vertical shot.

Even if the MythBusters result is completely true, it in no way says that people can't be killed by random shots fired into the air at a variety of angles.

 

[ideasrule]

Bullets fired at an angle also can retain much of their horizontal velocity when they again intersect the Earth (basic ballistics). They can be moving much faster (and so have much more energy) than simple terminal velocity from a vertical shot.

Do you have a source? Air resistance affects horizontal velocity too, and I would have thought that if you fire at 60 degrees, for example, horizontal velocity would be nearly 0 upon impact.

Even if the MythBusters result is completely true, it in no way says that people can't be killed by random shots fired into the air at a variety of angles.

The MythBusters result (I assume you mean conclusion) is that you CAN be killed by a bullet aimed at any angle that isn't 90.

 

[russ_watters]

I don't see how Mythbusters contradicts the confirmed cases in any way. Adam and Jamie specifically said that their experiments proved only that bullets fired STRAIGHT up are not lethal because they tumble, and that bullets fired at an angle are spin-stabilized, don't tumble, and are lethal.

Right - so after four pages, the point here is that this case has nothing to do with the "falling bullet myth". A bullet doesn't fall straight down and hit a church unless it is fired from the roof of the church. It is much more likely the bullet traveled in a normal, spin-stabilized ballistic trajectory with a range in the hundreds or thousands of meters, retaining a sizeable fraction of its muzzle velocity.

All of this 'could a falling bullet kill someone' talk is irrelevant.

 

[russ_watters]

Do you have a source? Air resistance affects horizontal velocity too, and I would have thought that if you fire at 60 degrees, for example, horizontal velocity would be nearly 0 upon impact.

That's a slightly different question, but even if it has zero horizontal velocity, it is probably still traveling substantially faster than the terminal velocity of a dropped bullet due to the spin stabilization. Not to mention, it has a better chance of punching a hole in something when it hits pointy-end first.

 

[russ_watters]

BTW, there is, of course, a wiki on this, with some interesting stats:

The mortality rate among those struck by falling bullets is about 32%, compared with about 2% to 6% normally associated with gunshot wounds.[5] The higher mortality is related to the higher incidence of head wounds from falling bullets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celebratory_gunfire

They don't really define how "falling bullets" are different from other bullets, though.

Firearms expert Julian Hatcher studied falling bullets and found that .30 caliber rounds reach terminal velocities of 300 feet per second (90 m/s) and larger .50 caliber bullets have a terminal velocity of 500 feet per second (150 m/s).[8]

Unfortunately, there is no web link to that reference, but I suspect that the terminal velocity she is measuring is the pointy-end-down terminal velocity, as it is much higher than the terminal velocity measured on Mythbusters.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

The question is, how do they determine it's a falling bullet? Here's a quote from the article you posted:

As in any sort of phenomenon where you are primarily relying on nonexpert witnesses and evidence after the fact there is room for error. Unless you want to argue for unaccounted for gunmen shooting at people in all of these cases it does not change much.

Are you arguing this based on the technical difference between a "falling bullet" and a bullet coming down from an angle? Because if you are your protests are really rather irrelevant. Either way idiots firing bullets into the sky are creating a danger and we have a news story here about a dead child. Are you seriously going to nit pick proper terminology? "Falling Bullet" works well enough for any layman.

 

[Evo]

Requests to keep this thread on topic are being ignored. Thread closed.