Did Mass Exist in the Early Universe Before the Higgs Boson?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the existence of mass in the early universe, particularly before the formation of the first particles and the role of the Higgs boson. Participants explore the implications of mass, the definitions of mass, and the conditions of the early universe from theoretical and conceptual perspectives.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question whether mass existed in the early universe and what that would mean, particularly in the absence of particles.
  • There is a request for clarification on the term "formation of the first particles" and the models being referenced, indicating a need for precise definitions of mass.
  • One participant asserts that total mass plus energy remains constant, suggesting a relationship between mass and energy in the context of the universe's evolution.
  • Another participant expresses uncertainty about the existence of mass before elementary particles, raising the possibility that mass may not be necessary for a system to have mass if particles can be destroyed.
  • Concerns are raised about the different meanings of "mass," distinguishing between "rest mass" of elementary particles and "total energy" in systems like black holes.
  • A participant mentions the Higgs boson and its relevance to the discussion, noting the difficulty in conceptualizing a state before its existence.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on whether mass existed in the early universe, and multiple competing views remain regarding the definitions and implications of mass in this context.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the ambiguity in the term "mass" and its dependence on the context in which it is used, as well as the unresolved nature of the early universe's conditions.

Brunolem33
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In the early stages of the universe, before the formation of the first particles, did mass exist?
If yes, what had mass?
If no, can one say that the early universe was massless?
 
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Brunolem33 said:
In the early stages of the universe, before the formation of the first particles

What does "formation of the first particles" mean? Can you give a reference for the model of the early universe you are using?

Generally speaking, your questions aren't well-defined because you haven't said what you mean by "mass". Knowing which model you are using might help to pin that down.
 
Total mass plus energy stays the same.
 
Brunolem33 said:
In the early stages of the universe, before the formation of the first particles, did mass exist?
If yes, what had mass?
If no, can one say that the early universe was massless?
My understanding is several of the elementary particles do have mass, and since we don't know the substructure of these particles, who knows if "mass" existed before them, or if there even was a time "before the formation of the first particles".
If we assume all particles are destroyed in a black hole, their existence doesn't seem to be required for the system to have mass.
 
Last edited:
stoomart said:
My understanding is several of the elementary particles do have mass, and since we don't know the substructure of these particles, who knows if "mass" existed before them, or if there even was a time "before the formation of the first particles".
IIf we assume all particles are destroyed in a black hole, their existence doesn't seem to be required for the system to have mass.

You're using the term "mass" in at least two different ways here. With regard to the elementary particles, you're using it to mean "rest mass". With regard to the black hole as a system, you're using it to mean "total energy". That only confuses the issue.
 
I hear that the Higgs boson has something to do with it.
The particle/field that was recently discovered by LHC.
Although I agree. it's hard to imagine a state of stuff before a Higgs boson exists, and whether it could be called matter or not.
 

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