Did the Trayvon Martin Case Expose Flaws in Stand Your Ground Laws?

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The Trayvon Martin case has raised significant concerns about the effectiveness and interpretation of Florida's "stand your ground" law, particularly regarding self-defense claims. Evidence suggests that the shooter, who followed Martin despite police instructions to stop, may have initiated the confrontation, raising questions about the justification for using deadly force. The local police's initial lack of thorough investigation has been criticized, with many arguing that the law may protect individuals who act aggressively under the guise of self-defense. The case highlights broader issues of vigilantism and the potential for misuse of self-defense laws, prompting calls for legal reform. Ultimately, the discussion emphasizes the need for careful investigation and consideration of the implications of such laws on public safety.
  • #61
checkitagain said:
But there shouldn't be a designation of "hate crimes" to begin with,
as if a person's supposed motivation for a crime could lessen
a penalty. It's hinged upon mind-reading.

And you're presumptuous about this Zimmerman being a racist.
You're trying to read his mind.

Here is a worn-out cliche':

The victim is just as dead.


It shouldn't matter if someone is a supposed racist when it
comes to the crimes. It should matter with the killing being
deliberate, accidental, justified, not justified, the intensity, etc.

There are American voters who have said that they would
never vote for Barack Obama to be President again. And
many of them of them have been called racists
for that very fact alone.

The boy isn't dead because the shooter is a (supposed)
racist. He's dead because the shooter is overzealous and
relatively mentally unstable.

There are numbers of self-admitted racists who would go out
of their way to not be in the vicinity of people of races they
hate.

And on a related note, why should appearing to have remorse
and/or being apologetic by a person convicted of murder, etc,
be used to try to reduce the sentence given for a penalty?

Agreed. This reminds me of the cases involving Rodney King, OJ Simpson/Nicole Brown/Ron Goldman, Bernard Goetz, etc. I see too many people over-reacting and not asking the right questions. Here is my view.

Was it pre-meditated or provoked, or was Zimmerman threatened, did he OVER-react, or was he seriously in danger? Did the victim provoke Zimmerman?

Only a jury examining all the evidence can answer. My position is just that I do not know. Right now, Zimmerman is INNOCENT until a jury finds him guilty beyond a doubt. That's the law.

I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.

I don't know.

Claude
 
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  • #62
I'm totally lost at how this argument is even going on

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/26/10868250-thousands-march-in-protest-to-florida-hearing-on-trayvon-martin-slaying

immerman's account emerged for the first time Monday in a report by The Orlando Sentinel. Quoting unidentified "law enforcement authorities," the Sentinel reported that Zimmerman told police that Trayvon Martin knocked him down with a single punch and slammed his head into the sidewalk several times before the shooting — an account that police said witnesses have corroborated.

Witnesses said they heard someone cry out in distress, some of them telling NBC News and other news organizations that it was Martin. But police sources told the Sentinel their evidence indicated it was Zimmerman.

So...
 
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  • #64
Pengwuino said:
I'm totally lost at how this argument is even going on

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/26/10868250-thousands-march-in-protest-to-florida-hearing-on-trayvon-martin-slaying

So...


So, it still doesn't explain why he stalked the kid in the first place after the police told him to back off, why the kid attacked him, or why the police just let him go. At the very least there should be an investigation.
 
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  • #65
wuliheron said:
So, it still doesn't explain why he stalked the kid in the first place after the police told him to back off, why the kid attacked him, or why the police just let him go. At the very least there should be an investigation.

Agreed, and it sounds like there is. All this nonsense about this kid being all innocent and being shot in cold blood sounds like garbage though. Get beyond the fact that now it's likely not a 1 sided defenseless murder and you have a situation that happens daily throughout the country.
 
  • #66
Pengwuino said:
Agreed, and it sounds like there is. All this nonsense about this kid being all innocent and being shot in cold blood sounds like garbage though. Get beyond the fact that now it's likely not a 1 sided defenseless murder and you have a situation that happens daily throughout the country.

Those speculations wouldn't be happening if the cops had done their job to begin with.
 
  • #67
wuliheron said:
Those speculations wouldn't be happening if the cops had done their job to begin with.

In this political climate, I highly doubt that. This morning I saw those Black panthers basically putting out a bounty for this zimmerman guy. Speculation should not lead to in a sense, terrorism against a country's own citizens in any decent society.
 
  • #68
wuliheron said:
Those speculations wouldn't be happening if the cops had done their job to begin with.

Which part?

It sounds to me as if they did investigate the crime and their actions were based on what their preliminary investigation indicated to them.

On the other hand, immediately making the details of their investigation public could have reduced speculation.

I'm not sure that's routine policy for all the crimes they investigate, though (nor would news organizations be interested in most of the crimes they investigate).

At best, I think you could say they should have anticipated this would generate more than average interest? Questionable, but in hindsight the case definitely has generated more than average interest. I think a more legitimate complaint would be that they should have been quicker to pick up on the interest and at least have been quicker to react to it. This had already spiraled into a national cause by time the police released more details on the case.
 
  • #69
jim hardy said:
That's been the assumption.

This was a "Gated Community"" whatever that means.

Is it posted as "Private" ?
Does Martin live there?
Was he taking a shortcut home and someplace he didnt belong or was he on a public street?

Where i lived in Key Largo there is an exclusive gated community called "Ocean Reef" with armed guards at the gate. My social strata just doesn't get in there without an invitation. I've never been past the gate.

Zimmerman may have been within his rights to question the young man.
Or he may be an overzealous "Condo Commando" mental case.

I sure don't know.

So i repeat - i'll wait and see.

Martin's father lives there. Martin spends enough time there to know at least one person in the neighborhood, but maybe not enough time for Zimmerman to recognize him as one of the residents.

Zimmerman was not within his "rights". He was definitely overzealous.

Guidelines for neighborhood watch groups:

http://www.bellevuepd.com/neighborhoodwatch.pdf . Okay, that's not particularly helpful, but I used to live there. Plus, it does point out some of the problems with neighborhood watch programs. The guidance given out across different communities is uneven, and perhaps inadequate in some cases. In this case, Bellevue relies on the Police Dept giving more detailed tips in person after the group is registered with the Police Dept.

http://www.sacsheriff.com/crime_prevention/documents/neighborhood_watch_04.cfm . More typical of the type of guidance the police/sheriff dept will provide to neighborhood watch programs, either publically or in person (provided the group has actually registered with the police).

Specifically in the guidance for citizen patrols:
Make sure your citizen patrol:

Undergoes training by law enforcement and have their support;
Works in teams;
Wears identifying clothing -t-shirts, caps, vests, .jackets-or reflective clothing or patches;
Never carries weapons of any kind — e.g. guns, black jack, mace, baseball bat, or knives;
Never challenges anyone;
Always carries a pad and pencil, and a flashlight if it is dark;
Is courteous and helpful to residents of the area being patrolled: and
Keeps logs and files reports with the local law enforcement agency.

Zimmerman's neighborhood watch program was an unofficial one that was never registered and, presumably, never received the guidance that registered neighborhood watch groups received (Correction: Apparently the group was registered with the local police, but not registered with the national association of neighborhood watch groups, for whatever the national group is worth. Training to neighborhood watch groups is still very uneven).

Zimmerman violated at least four of the first five items on that list (and five unless you consider a red jacket as identifying clothing).

Neighbor watch groups have the authority to watch and to report. That's it. They have no authority to stop crimes, or to question suspicious people. They can only watch and report.
 
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  • #70
Zimmerman was not within his "rights". He was definitely overzealous.

If indeed Martin's father lives in the community not just the neighborhood, just saying so should have been the end of it.

How'd it get to fisticuffs ?
 
  • #71
"I mean, he took a man's life and he has no idea what to do about it. He's extremely remorseful about it," Oliver said, relating stories told to him by Zimmerman's mother-in-law, a close friend of Oliver's wife.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/25/joe-oliver-george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin_n_1378390.html

It's hard to believe that a man who made apparently racist comments and profiled a stranger before confronting and shooting him could be that remorseful. Perhaps he is "remorseful" after realizing that if he is arrested, all of his time in custody (all of his time!) will be spent in "protective custody" (solitary confinement and no contact with the population) lest he be brutalized or killed. IMO, he'd be better off in federal prison (with better security) for a hate crime than in a local lock-up (county or state), because he will have a target on his back the whole time. Inmates have family including children, and new inmates that have sexually or physically abused children are not too safe in custody.
 
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  • #72
jim hardy said:
If indeed Martin's father lives in the community not just the neighborhood, just saying so should have been the end of it.

How'd it get to fisticuffs ?

If Zimmerman's account is true, then perhaps the kid was ticked off that he couldn't walk through his own neighborhood without being harrassed?

Obviously, decking him wouldn't be the best response and it's also possible things started out a little slower. But teenage males have the tendency to at least be quick to smart aleck remarks when confronted with something they see as stupid and they're not all that slow to go from smart aleck comments to physical confrontation. To be honest, it's not all that uncommon for adults to retort with some inappropriate comment when someone they see as a jerk is harrassing them in their own neighborhood.

Hence the danger of running around the neighborhood accosting anyone you don't know personally. You're intruding on their personal space and should at least be aware of the possibility of bad things coming from that.
 
  • #73
I live in a tiny town where I am well known and it wouldn't be too hard (several minutes, probably) to get a concealed-carry permit. I can't imagine going out walking Duke after dark and confronting any stranger (not that there are many strangers here walking around), but I sure wouldn't pretend that I was the "captain" of a non-certified "neighborhood watch" group. All of my neighbors are armed, and we all have each others' telephone numbers in case there are any altercations. We are at least 20 minutes away from getting a 911 response, and we'll watch each others' back. Still, we are not going to patrol this road packing. No need.
 
  • #74
Pengwuino said:
In this political climate, I highly doubt that. This morning I saw those Black panthers basically putting out a bounty for this zimmerman guy. Speculation should not lead to in a sense, terrorism against a country's own citizens in any decent society.

People get shot all the time without this much fuss. Some 2/3 of whites even agree the man should be arrested and a special prosecutor has been assigned to the case. Some protests might have been inevitable, but this is clearly over the top.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/26/justice/florida-teen-shooting-poll/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
 
  • #75
turbo said:
I live in a tiny town where I am well known and it wouldn't be too hard (several minutes, probably) to get a concealed-carry permit. I can't imagine going out walking Duke after dark and confronting any stranger (not that there are many strangers here walking around), but I sure wouldn't pretend that I was the "captain" of a non-certified "neighborhood watch" group. All of my neighbors are armed, and we all have each others' telephone numbers in case there are any altercations. We are at least 20 minutes away from getting a 911 response, and we'll watch each others' back. Still, we are not going to patrol this road packing. No need.

The state I live in you can legally carry a concealed weapon if you have a special license or just wear the thing openly if you don't. Last year we had a black guy stand on a street corner wearing a gun on his hip and when the police arrested him he successfully sued the city. The same thing has already happened in small towns across the country where the locals found out the hard way they can't afford to elect the biggest ******* around Sheriff. Florida asked for this kind of nonsense by giving even idiots the right to carry firearms everywhere and now they'd better learn to deal with the mess they've created or accept the consequences.
 
  • #76
wuliheron said:
Florida asked for this kind of nonsense by giving even idiots the right to carry firearms everywhere and now they'd better learn to deal with the mess they've created or accept the consequences.

One could argue that idiots have a right to carry firearms and that the US Constitution just puts that right in writing. Or one could argue that the US Constitution gives idiots the right to carry firearms. Either way, that right existed before Florida was even a state.

The problem with restricting gun ownership rights for idiots is who gets to decide who the idiots are - Republicans or Democrats.
 
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  • #77
BobG said:
One could argue that idiots have a right to carry firearms and that the US Constitution just puts that right in writing. Or one could argue that the US Constitution gives idiots the right to carry firearms. Either way, that right existed before Florida was even a state.

The problem with restricting gun ownership rights for idiots is who gets to decide who the idiots are - Republicans or Democrats.

What a joke. My constitutional rights have been indefinitely suspended by congress, in Arizona the cops can now legally bust down your door without a warrant if they just say they smell pot, last year congress seriously debated allowing the military to suspend habeas corpus altogether and round people up into make-shift camps, and these hypocritical idiots who support these politicians are arguing they should have the right to carry firearms in public because the constitution give them that right.

As for who decides who the idiots are that can't carry guns in public, the same people who decide who the idiots are that can't drive a car in public, practice medicine, or cut hair for that matter. The majority.
 
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  • #78
Martin's father lives there.

Well, now it's his father's girlfriend who lives there.
Trayvon was visiting his father's fiancée, who lived there.
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager

better wait and see what comes out on this one.

Being young and black does not make Martin right or wrong. Neither does his being dead.

"Just the facts, please."
 
  • #79
Because of contradicting information, new information/details,
and the sources of those, I see that the whole case is relatively
more complicated then as it was first presented.

Therefore, I change my assessment of the situation to
"I need more relevant information."

I must have a wait-and-see attitude about this.
 
  • #80
checkitagain said:
Because of contradicting information, new information/details,
and the sources of those, I see that the whole case is relatively
more complicated then as it was first presented.

Therefore, I change my assessment of the situation to
"I need more relevant information."

I must have a wait-and-see attitude about this.

I concur 100%, mostly because the case does not affect me very much, other than another reason to laugh at states like Florida who introduce such laws.
 
  • #81
I think the law stands on shakey grounds to begin with. Look at cases of police officers who have abused their authority, and then they think they will give similar immunity to every person regardless of their mental and personality condition? There has to be some middle ground of reason when you make laws like this.

I have a hard time feeling bad for this guy even if he was provoked to use his gun. Put yourself in his shoes, and then try to feel sorry for him . . he was carrying a gun! and found himself in an altercation with a minor while carrying a gun! Would you ever find yourself confronting a teenager, no matter how suspicious he looked, while carrying a gun? That is just ridiculous and irresponsible, regardless of what the law says he can do. This guy was looking for trouble, and that was intentional. Should you go to jail for intentional irresponsible behavior that results in someone's death? I think most people do go to jail for that. What would happen if the same altercation happened, and he wasn't carrying a gun? He might have been assaulted, although he put himself in that position, and then the kid would be in the police station . . that seems like how it should have resulted.

I like the idea of personal freedom and the right to defend yourself, and I hope this guy didn't ruin it for everyone else.
 
  • #82
jim hardy said:
Well, now it's his father's girlfriend who lives there.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager

better wait and see what comes out on this one.

Being young and black does not make Martin right or wrong. Neither does his being dead.

"Just the facts, please."

I thought the authorities just let him go? If he was that bloody and beaten, where is the evidence of it? The doctors report of the broken nose? We have none of that so far. It says in the article, he was severely beaten, but the EMTs patched him up on the scene.

then Trayvon climbed on top of George Zimmerman and slammed his head into the sidewalk, leaving him bloody and battered, law-enforcement authorities told the Orlando Sentinel.

That is the account Zimmerman gave police, and much of it has been corroborated by witnesses, authorities say. There have been no reports that a witness saw the initial punch Zimmerman told police about.

When police arrived less than two minutes later, Zimmerman was bleeding from the nose, had a swollen lip and had bloody lacerations to the back of his head.

Paramedics gave him first aid but he said he did not need to go to the hospital. He got medical care the next day.

I did look for the doctor's report online to back the claims asserted in the article but found none, and so far, there are no pictures detailing Zimmerman's injuries.

In this political climate, I highly doubt that.

I highly doubt your assertion.
 
  • #83
If he was that bloody and beaten, where is the evidence of it?

in the police report i linked a page or two ago in post #43.

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigati...l%20Report.pdf
 
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  • #85
jim hardy said:
in the police report i linked a page or two ago in post #43.

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigati...l%20Report.pdf

Hardly evidence to the questions:

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Twin%20Lakes%20Shooting%20Initial%20Report.pdf

Paramedic records? You call that evidence yet stand firmly by your stance of, "just the facts please"? Those aren't facts just what one has stated. People do lie and police reports are only as good as the officer wants them to be, in that, he can forget crucial details or lie. That report must be corroborated by doctors/physicians and eye-witnesses, to which the ones coming forward are anonymous so they won't be of much help to Zimmerman's case.

Well, that's very odd, very odd indeed...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protect...th_information

http://www.hipaa.com/2009/09/hipaa-p...s-phi-include/

Not odd as medical records are released to the public when one wants them released on his/her volition. Releasing the medical records would only bolster his side of the story more than it takes away from his defense. Of course, he is the one saying he was severely beaten which is why he shot Martin.
 
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  • #86
Well if you're going to impugn sources you don't like

dont try to make me believe Daily Kos.

I'll stick with the police report for two reasons:

1. It's an official report not a reporter's interpretation
2. It's the account from the person closest to the events that we have.

People do lie and police reports are only as good as the officer wants them to be, in that, he can forget crucial details or lie.
Are you serious, sir?
 
  • #87
Don't make this into something that I hadn't asked for in the first place. The burden of actual proof is on you now, not me, as you are the one claiming that is evidence, when in fact, it is just a police report. I am referring to actual evidence that corroborates the injuries, i.e. pictures, paramedic report, and doctors report, all to which that police report states the injuries Zimmerman had on scene(Zimmerman claims to have went to the hospital the next day).

It is a fact that a medical report that actually defends Zimmerman's account doesn't exist as of yet. That is a fact. A police report is only an account of what happened and is only good as evidence if it is stood by other parties, i.e. the list above of medical records, paramedic, and eye-witnesses accounts. Those are facts.

Are you serious, sir?

Humans lie, exaggerate, and/or tell half-truths. Police aren't exactly righteous through and through. One of the reasons I state the previous is because of internal affair reports, police brutality, and yes, police flat-out lying and exaggerating reports to which they've been sued of because of the actual evidence contradicting what they have reported.
 
  • #88
phoenix:\\ said:
Not odd as medical records are released to the public when one wants them released
phoenix:\\ said:
I did look for the doctor's report online but found none

Oh wait... did you check Facebook?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook

Wikipedia said:
As of February 2012, Facebook has more than 845 million active users.





OCR... lol
 
  • #89
I am referring to actual evidence that corroborates the injuries, i.e. pictures, paramedic report, and doctors report, all to which that police report states the injuries Zimmerman had on scene(Zimmerman claims to have went to the hospital the next day).

and as I've said all along, we'll just have to wait.

EDIT:

never mind, moved down a couple posts
 
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  • #90
phoenix:\\ said:
. The burden of actual proof is on you now, not me, as you are the one claiming that is evidence, when in fact, it is just a police report.
Police reports are evidence, and admissible in court as evidence. No piece of evidence is perfect nor 100% reliable, but that doesn't make it not evidence. Your assertion is absurd.
 

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