Differentiability of Monotone Function's: Lebesgue's Theorem

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the differentiability of monotone functions, specifically in the context of Lebesgue's theorem. Participants explore the implications of convergence for defining functions, the nature of inequalities in function definitions, and the construction of open balls in relation to distances between points.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question whether convergence implies that a function is properly defined, suggesting that divergence would lead to the function being undefined.
  • There is a discussion about the definition of the function f(x) as a series and the requirement for convergence to ensure f(x) is a real number.
  • Participants express confusion regarding the expectation of equality in certain inequalities related to the function, with some arguing that the inequality holds because specific terms are included in the sum.
  • One participant proposes that for any finite n, it is possible to construct a ball around a point that excludes certain elements, leading to a discussion about minimizing differences in function values.
  • Clarification is sought regarding the concept of open balls in the real line and their relevance to the discussion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of convergence and the nature of inequalities in the function definitions. There is no consensus on whether certain expectations about equality should hold, indicating ongoing debate and confusion regarding the concepts discussed.

Contextual Notes

Some participants highlight limitations in understanding the definitions and implications of convergence, inequalities, and the concept of open balls, which may affect their interpretations and arguments.

Artusartos
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a)Does convergence imply being properly defined? So would it not be properly defined if it was divergent?

b)I am having trouble why the last part (in the attachment) says, "Then, by (1), [itex]f(x_0) - f(x) \geq dfrac{2^k} for all [itex]x < x_0[/itex]." But does (1) tell us that it's "equal" instead of "greater than or equal to"?<br /> <br /> Thanks in advance[/itex]
 

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a) We define the function

[tex]f(x) = \sum_{q_n\leq x} \frac{1}{2^n}[/tex]

But if the series in the RHS diverges for a certain ##x##. Then we would have ##f(x)=+\infty##. But ##+\infty## is not a real number. We want ##f(x)## to be a real number for any ##x##. This is only satisfied if the series converge.

So yes, if we say that ##f(x)## is well-defined, then that actually means that the series converge.

b) I'm not quite understanding why you expect the equality to hold. You have

[tex]f(q_k) - f(x) = \sum_{x<q_n\leq q_k} \frac{1}{2^n} \geq \frac{1}{2^k}[/tex]

The inequality in the end of course holds because ##1/2^k## is a term in the sum on the LHS. So the inequality means that you drop every term in the sum except ##1/2^k##. I don't get why you think that this should be an equality.
 
micromass said:
a) We define the function

[tex]f(x) = \sum_{q_n\leq x} \frac{1}{2^n}[/tex]

But if the series in the RHS diverges for a certain ##x##. Then we would have ##f(x)=+\infty##. But ##+\infty## is not a real number. We want ##f(x)## to be a real number for any ##x##. This is only satisfied if the series converge.

So yes, if we say that ##f(x)## is well-defined, then that actually means that the series converge.

b) I'm not quite understanding why you expect the equality to hold. You have

[tex]f(q_k) - f(x) = \sum_{x<q_n\leq q_k} \frac{1}{2^n} \geq \frac{1}{2^k}[/tex]

The inequality in the end of course holds because ##1/2^k## is a term in the sum on the LHS. So the inequality means that you drop every term in the sum except ##1/2^k##. I don't get why you think that this should be an equality.

Thanks, but I have one more question...

[tex]f(q_k) - f(x) = \sum_{x<q_n\leq q_k} \frac{1}{2^n} \geq \frac{1}{2^n}[/tex], right? But then how do we have [itex]|f(x)-f(x_0)| = \frac{1}{2^n} < \frac{1}{2^n}[/itex]?

I don't know, I think I'm confused about what n represents.
 
Basically, for any finite n, you can construct a ball about xo that excludes all the

elements Sn:={q1,...,qn}, since min{ |xo-qi| i=1,2,..n} :=d >0

meaning, for finitely-many elements qi , the distance from xo to any of them is

non-zero, and the since the set Sn is finite, the set of distances from xo to any member in Sn has a minimum ( no need to worry about infs.) ,

say that minimum is called d.

Then, within the ball, say, B(x,d/2) , the only possible elements of C in the ball

are {q(n+1),q(n+2),...} . Now, by definition of f(x), can

you see why the difference can be made as small as possible (think of the elements of C between x and xo in the ball)?
 
Last edited:
Bacle2 said:
Basically, for any finite n, you can construct a ball about xo that excludes all the

elements Sn:={q1,...,qn}, since min{ |xo-qi| i=1,2,..n} :=d >0

meaning, for finitely-many elements qi , the distance from xo to any of them is

non-zero, and the since the set Sn is finite, the set of distances from xo to any member in Sn has a minimum ( no need to worry about infs.) ,

say that minimum is called d.

Then, within the ball, say, B(x,d/2) , the only possible elements of C in the ball

are {q(n+1),q(n+2),...} . Now, by definition of f(x), can

you see why the difference can be made as small as possible (think of the elements of C between x and xo in the ball)?

Thanks a lot, but I'm not really familiar with "balls"...
 
An open ball B(x,r) in the real line , i.e., x is any real number and d is a positive real is the set:

B(x,r):={ y in Reals : |x-y|<d }
 

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