Differentiation of coordinate wrt another coordinate

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the differentiation of coordinates with respect to one another, particularly focusing on the implications of differentiating the y-coordinate with respect to the x-coordinate, and the meanings of such derivatives in various contexts. It includes theoretical considerations and conceptual clarifications related to derivatives and differentials in the context of constrained motion.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes that differentiating y with respect to t yields velocity, and the second derivative gives acceleration, but questions the meaning of differentiating y with respect to x or y.
  • Another participant asks for clarification on whether the term "differential" or "derivative" is being used, suggesting that under certain conditions, x and y can be treated as functions of time due to the Implicit Function Theorem.
  • A third participant references a link that provides an explanation of partial derivatives, describing it as a beautiful explanation, but does not elaborate on its content.
  • One participant expresses confusion over the previous answers and requests a summary of the lengthy link provided.
  • Another participant attempts to clarify the situation by describing the plane and the curve defined by parameterization, explaining that differentiating y with respect to x gives the slope of the curve at a specific point.
  • A participant reiterates their confusion regarding the previous answers and the lengthy link, providing a brief summary of the link's content about partial derivatives and their graphical representation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing levels of understanding regarding the concepts of differentiation and partial derivatives, with some finding the provided explanations helpful while others remain confused. No consensus is reached on the clarity of the explanations given.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved questions about the definitions and distinctions between derivatives and differentials, as well as the implications of differentiating coordinates in constrained systems. The discussion reflects varying levels of familiarity with the mathematical concepts involved.

Jhenrique
Messages
676
Reaction score
4
When I take the differential of y wrt t (being t a parameter (time)) I get the velocity of the y-coordinate, if take the second differential of y wrt t, thus I get the aceleration of the y-coordinate... ok! But what means to differentiate the y-coordinate wrt x-coordinate, or wrt y, or then differentiate twice wrt to y, or x, or xy. ?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Do you mean the derivative or the differential?
A common situation would be if the movement is constrained so that
f(x,y,t)=0
by the Implicit function theorem we can think of x and y as each being functions of time, or as being functions of each other.
 
lurflurf said:
Do you mean the derivative or the differential?

differential in the inverse sense of integral, ie, "the differential of f wrt to x results the derivative of f"...

chogg said:
lurflurf has answered the question nicely.

I would add the following link, which is the most beautiful explanation of partial derivatives which I've encountered.
http://www.av8n.com/physics/partial-derivative.htm

His answer did not clear anything to me. You text-link is very big, gives to summarize?
 
It is good to picture the situation: What you have is the plane ##\mathbb R ^2## and points ##(x,y)## on that plane. Then you put a curve ##\gamma## into that plane via
##
\gamma(t)= (x(t), y(t)) \, .
##
Taking the derivative with respect to time gives you the velocity $$\dot \gamma (t)$$. Getting rid of the parameter by solving y for x gives you the (image of the) curve without telling you how fast you go along that curve. Then differentiating ##y## with respect to ##x## tells you the slope of that curve at point ##(x, y(x))##. For simplicity I assumed there is only on ##y## value corresponding to a given ##x##-value.
 
Jhenrique said:
His answer did not clear anything to me. You text-link is very big, gives to summarize?

From the top of the link:

Executive summary: Partial derivatives have many important uses in math and science. We shall see that a partial derivative is not much more or less than a particular sort of directional derivative. The only trick is to have a reliable way of specifying directions ... so most of this note is concerned with formalizing the idea of direction. This results in a nice graphical representation of what “partial derivative” means. Perhaps even more importantly, the diagrams go hand-in-hand with a nice-looking exact formula in terms of wedge products.

My summary: If you really want to understand partial derivatives, this link is a good reference.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 0 ·
Replies
0
Views
2K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
4K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
3K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
3K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
3K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
Replies
1
Views
1K