Dirac delta, generalizations of vector calculus and sigh vagueness

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the Dirac delta function and its implications in vector calculus, particularly in the context of divergence and distributions. Participants explore the mathematical rigor behind certain equations and the interpretations of derivatives in ordinary versus distributional contexts.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses frustration with the vagueness in theoretical physics and emphasizes the need for exactness in mathematical definitions, particularly regarding the Dirac delta function and distributions.
  • Another participant presents equations involving integrals and derivatives, asserting that certain equations can be proven using ordinary calculus, while also noting the potential utility of measure theory.
  • Several participants question the meaning and validity of the left-hand side of the equation involving the divergence of a vector field, suggesting that it may not have meaning without proper interpretation.
  • There is a discussion about the relationship between the Dirac delta function and the equations presented, with participants suggesting that the Dirac delta can be understood through integration by parts and changing the order of differentiation and integration.
  • One participant proposes that multiplying both sides of an equation by a function and integrating could lead to different interpretations depending on whether ordinary or distributional derivatives are used.
  • Another participant introduces a specific function to illustrate that an infinite value at a single point does not affect the outcome of an integral over a broader domain.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the interpretation of the equations or the validity of the left-hand side of the divergence equation. There are competing views on the use of ordinary versus distributional derivatives, and the discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of these interpretations.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the discussion regarding the assumptions made about the equations and the definitions of derivatives. The relationship between the Dirac delta function and the divergence theorem is not fully clarified, and the proofs of the equations presented are not universally accepted.

nonequilibrium
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Although I am an aspiring physicist, I cannot cope with the physicist's love for vagueness when it comes to yielding math. Exactness is simply not a luxury that can be ignored, certainly not in theoretical physics.

But okay, I realize the dirac delta function can be made exact by the use of, for example, distributions, although the measure-theoretic concept seems prettier to me, so maybe I should delve into that. Anyway, something I cannot make sense of, even with distributions:

[tex]\vec \nabla \cdot \left( \frac{\vec{r}}{r^3} \right) = 4 \pi \delta^3(\vec r)[/tex]

(source: p70 from Griffiths' Electrodynamics)

I suppose it can't be anything else than the definition of the gradient of the function between parentheses in such a way that the good ol' divergence theorem

[tex]\int\int\int_V \vec \nabla \cdot \left( \frac{\vec{r}}{r^3} \right) \mathrm dV = \int \int_{\partial V} \frac{\vec{r}}{r^3} \cdot \mathrm d \vec S[/tex]

is once again true, because of course normally the theorem is simply not defined for the function (and domain) at hand, so we can view the definition as a generalization of the divergence theorem by use of distributions.

But one thing is bugging me: is it clear that the definition is well-defined? In the sense that: how do we know that there is not another situation where [tex]\vec \nabla \cdot \left( \frac{\vec{r}}{r^3} \right)[/tex] can turn up as the limiting, normally non-defined case of a certain equality (just like the divergence theorem), in which case we no longer have a choice of definition and in which case we must substitute the dirac delta function as defined? Do we know that the same definition will extend also that equality (again: by use of distributions)?

Thank you! I'm learning to cope... (although I don't know if that's good or not)
 
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It is important to understand, that if we are using ordinary integrals and derivatives, then following three equations are true (with some additional assumptions)

[tex] \int \big(\nabla f(x)\big) \cdot \frac{x - x'}{\|x - x'\|^3} d^3x = -4\pi f(x')\quad\quad\quad\quad (1)[/tex]

[tex] \nabla \cdot \int f(x') \frac{x - x'}{\|x - x'\|^3} d^3x' = 4\pi f(x)\quad\quad\quad\quad (2)[/tex]

[tex] \int f(x')\Big(\nabla\cdot \frac{x - x'}{\|x - x'\|^3}\Big) d^3x' = 0\quad\quad\quad\quad (3)[/tex]

The equation (3) is the one that is the most poorly understood. It is a very simple thing, but even it cannot be understood if not clearly stated.

mr. vodka said:
But okay, I realize the dirac delta function can be made exact by the use of, for example, distributions, although the measure-theoretic concept seems prettier to me, so maybe I should delve into that. Anyway, something I cannot make sense of, even with distributions:

[tex]\vec \nabla \cdot \left( \frac{\vec{r}}{r^3} \right) = 4 \pi \delta^3(\vec r)[/tex]

(source: p70 from Griffiths' Electrodynamics)

The rigor definition of distributions and Dirac measure are not going to help you in understanding how to prove equations (1) and (2). The proofs can be carried out with ordinary calculus, and IMO a convergence result from the measure theory can be handy too.
 
How can it be proven? The left-hand side of the equation does not have any meaning, does it?
 
mr. vodka said:
How can it be proven? The left-hand side of the equation does not have any meaning, does it?

You mean, how can this

mr. vodka said:
[tex]\vec \nabla \cdot \left( \frac{\vec{r}}{r^3} \right) = 4 \pi \delta^3(\vec r)[/tex]

be proven?

It should be interpreted as a notation for these equations:

jostpuur said:
[tex] \int \big(\nabla f(x)\big) \cdot \frac{x - x'}{\|x - x'\|^3} d^3x = -4\pi f(x')\quad\quad\quad\quad (1)[/tex]

[tex] \nabla \cdot \int f(x') \frac{x - x'}{\|x - x'\|^3} d^3x' = 4\pi f(x)\quad\quad\quad\quad (2)[/tex]

The heuristic idea is in doing integration by parts in (1) and changing the order of derivation and integration in (2).

Before you can prove an equation to be true, you must know what it means. Your equation means my equation (1) (and maybe (2) too). So you should focus in trying to prove the equations (1) and (2). I would recommend (1) first, and (2) second.
 
If I multiply both sides of my equation with f(x) and then integrate them both, I get the RHS of (2) but the LHS of (3), no?
 
mr. vodka said:
If I multiply both sides of my equation with f(x) and then integrate them both, I get the RHS of (2) but the LHS of (3), no?

It depends what your equations left side means. If it is an ordinary derivative, then your equation is wrong. If it is a distributional derivative, then your equation is right but it needs lot of interpreting.

The derivatives in my equations are ordinary derivatives, not distributional derivatives. So if your equation has distributional derivative, you don't get the left side of my equation (3).

If you define a function like this:

[tex] \phi(x) = \left\{\begin{array}{l}<br /> +\infty,\quad x=x_0\\<br /> 0,\quad x\neq x_0\\<br /> \end{array}\right.[/tex]

then

[tex] \int\limits_{\mathbb{R}^n} \phi(x) d^nx = 0[/tex]

Ok? The infinite value at one point does not affect the integral.
 

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