Do Babies and Invertebrates Experience Pain?

[surprise]

I'm not suggesting what we should or should not do. I'm just bringing up more data points for a better analysis.

As I mentioned earlier, more than the pain of the animal, it is our perception of the pain (or the trigger of the specific neurons) that is determining our morality. (of course, knowledge about the pain the animal goes through helps us to adjust our morality) The actions we do to other animals or humans are the result of the struggle between our empathetic neurons vs our biologic/sociological evolutionary benefits.

Humans, specifically women, tend to be more caring and empathetic towards even the most minute forms of suffering. Attempting to anthropomorphize a frog by assuming that it's subjective experience of pain is identical to ours is borderline stupid. Nature has no time for petty caretakers worrying about the feelings of prey and animals at the low end of the food chain.

So humans haven't evolved past the moral compass of a lion?

If we have the ability, we have the duty.

Morality has nothing to do with this. If morality played a role concerning the overall diet of the human race we might as well be all vegetarians. Thinking they feel pain at the level we do is a greater form of superstition as thinking eating them alive will make one receive their internal powers.

 

[Monique]

Thinking they feel pain at the level we do is a greater form of superstition as thinking eating them alive will make one receive their internal powers.

Proof that, or is it just your opinion that humans have stronger pain sensation than other animals? As said, we can't even understand why some humans experience stronger pain than others, there is no independent measurement of pain in animals.

Nature has no time for petty caretakers worrying about the feelings of prey and animals at the low end of the food chain.

We have plenty of time, we're discussing it right now aren't we?

 

[surprise]

Proof that, or is it just your opinion that humans have stronger pain sensation than other animals? As said, we can't even understand why some humans experience stronger pain than others, there is no independent measurement of pain in animals.

It would probably be a more painful experience for you to be forced to eat an Ikizukuri served frog then it would be for the frog itself.

I think your idea of pain is somewhat ill-defined. You seem to believe the sentient experience for us and the frog is the same, based on observations of instinct and the stimulation of receptor neurons. The frog's brain functions at a level that is so primitive it interprets threats to it's existence merely on a biological (physical) level, not a qualitative one. The best way I can explain this to you is to ask you this question:

Remember when you were a baby, and the doctor hit you, and for the first time in your life you felt pain? if you remember that day, then pain is; both a sensory & qualitative experience for an undeveloped brain. If you don't remember that day, then pain is merely a sensory experience for an undeveloped brain.

But that's just my opinion. (Coming off from a logical standpoint, akin to the reasoning behind empathy among higher forms of consciousness).

We have plenty of time, we're discussing it right now aren't we?

A non-qualified, broke 22 year old man argues about biology with a distinguished biologist with a PhD. Not really.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Morality has nothing to do with this. If morality played a role concerning the overall diet of the human race we might as well be all vegetarians.

What? There are plenty of vegetarians and many are for moral reasons. There are complex social economic and strong physiological reasons for why most accept a meat heavy diet.

Thinking they feel pain at the level we do is a greater form of superstition as thinking eating them alive will make one receive their internal powers.

No one is claiming they feel pain at the level we do. In your example, you say babies do not feel pain at an adult level. Why then is abuse of a baby illegal? We should then be able to smack them around as they don't feel pain at our level. It's superstition to think that hitting a baby actually hurts them.

 

[surprise]

What? There are plenty of vegetarians and many are for moral reasons. There are complex social economic and strong physiological reasons for why most accept a meat heavy diet.

No doubt. Thankfully we aren't all like that.

No one is claiming they feel pain at the level we do. In your example, you say babies do not feel pain at an adult level. Why then is abuse of a baby illegal? We should then be able to smack them around as they don't feel pain at our level. It's superstition to think that hitting a baby actually hurts them.

That wasn't what I was implying. I was talking about non-human subjects. How is eating a frog alive in anyway related to physically abusing a baby? Bear Grylls eats living frogs straight out of swamps numerous times on his 'Man vs. Wild' show. I doubt he'd do the same thing with babies. And I wasn't justifying the abuse of animals due to their inability to experience pain on a sentient level, I was backing up my opinion with an example.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

That wasn't what I was implying. I was talking about non-human subjects.

Non human, so what about a chimpanzee? Is that ok to eat alive?

How is eating a frog alive in anyway related to physically abusing a baby?

Because as you claim babies feel pain on a "biological (physical) level, not a qualitative one", so it's ok to abuse them just like it's ok to abuse a frog.

 

[surprise]

Non human, so what about a chimpanzee? Is that ok to eat alive?

Don't watch the following video if you have a weak stomach -



What's "ok" as you promptly put it, isn't a matter of fact, but of opinion. Unless you can show me evidence of a book that outlines the absolute morals of humans concerning food consumption.

Because as you claim babies feel pain on a "biological (physical) level, not a qualitative one", so it's ok to abuse them just like it's ok to abuse a frog.

Again, if abusing babies is your thing, then that's your thing. Do I agree with it? No. But who am I? Am I God? So, define what's "okay" and "not okay".

 

[Monique]

The frog's brain functions at a level that is so primitive it interprets threats to it's existence merely on a biological (physical) level, not a qualitative one.

Can you explain that one? What is non-physical pain?

 

[surprise]

Sentience is the ability to feel, perceive, or be conscious, or to experience subjectivity. Eighteenth century philosophers used the concept to distinguish the ability to think ("reason") from the ability to feel ("sentience"). In modern western philosophy, sentience is the ability to experience sensations (known by the technical term "qualia"). For Eastern philosophy, sentience is a metaphysical quality of all things that requires respect and care. The concept is central to the philosophy of animal rights, because sentience is necessary for the ability to suffer, which is held to entail certain rights.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentience

Imagine if we created an AI embodied in the form of a robot. You already know where this is headed. Does it feel pain? obviously not. How do we know? Well, unless you believe the motion of atoms within it's mechanical brain somehow allows a pile of constructed plastic and electric wiring to 'feel' pain, then it really isn't able to experience suffering.

Which is why I subscribe to the belief that what we experience as pain is more advanced due to a higher form of consciousness. (i.e. non-physical, but metaphysical).

I should really be asking you this question. You have the PhD, so you're the genius, not me.

 

[Monique]

Yes, I am a biologist and not a philosopher that deals with the metaphysical world.

So you are suggesting that a baby does not have a high cognitive ability, so it can not experience pain? I don't don't think I need to argue that babies experience pain. A doctor wouldn't perform complex procedures on a baby without applying the appropriate analgesics. One can say "the child won't remember when it's older, so let's save some money and cancel the pain medication". However, the behavior of the child will change in response to the experience (the baby might even die, due to the stress). Other animals do so as well, including invertebrates.

Your example of the robot is not appropriate, since biology is much more complex than that. To illustrate, the following article has a thoughtful description: http://ilarjournal.oxfordjournals.org/content/52/2/175.full.pdf#page=1&view=FitH

In order to experience pain one must first have the receptors and nervous system to process the information from the noxious stimulus. Then there must be physiological changes in response: stress, followed by avoidance learning and prolonged memory. These processes happen in primitive animals as well.

I often meet people who belief that fruit flies cannot learn and that they don't have specific types of memory, but they do. Rejected male fruit flies even turn to alcohol, which stimulates the reward center in the brain (http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2012/03/sexually-rejected-flies-turn-to-.html ).

High cognitive ability is often an argument, but even humans with severe intellectual ability show signs of pain perception. Pain is not only a reflex (touch something hot, pull finger away), it's a complex biological system that's present throughout the animal kingdom. Our experiences are a result of chemical reactions, which are not exclusive to humans.