Do Crows Have Counting Abilities?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the social behaviors and intelligence of crows, particularly in relation to their interactions with other species, such as cats. Participants share anecdotes, express curiosity about animal emotions, and speculate on the implications of these interactions.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants share personal stories about crows, highlighting their intelligence and social behaviors.
  • There is speculation about the nature of the relationship between crows and cats, with some suggesting that crows may take advantage of kittens.
  • Participants express curiosity about the emotional capacities of animals, questioning whether crows exhibit compassion or moral behavior.
  • One participant humorously imagines a future where crows develop their own society and governance.
  • Another participant mentions the tool-using abilities of New Caledonian crows, contrasting this with the perceived limitations of cats.
  • There is a discussion about the rarity of crows forming bonds with other species, prompting questions about the motivations behind such behaviors.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the emotional capabilities of crows or the nature of their interactions with other animals. Multiple competing views remain regarding the implications of these behaviors and the anthropomorphism of animal actions.

Contextual Notes

Some statements reflect personal anecdotes and speculative reasoning, which may not be universally applicable or scientifically validated. The discussion includes assumptions about animal emotions and social structures that are not resolved.

Math Is Hard
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I don't think I've ever seen anything like this:

 
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Math Is Hard said:
I don't think I've ever seen anything like this:



Crows are cheeky sods, mom has one that will come to the door demanding food, benji can walk right up to it.
 
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Does he ring the doorbell?
 
Hahaha, that was so great! I always like stories like these.
 
I was a little worried when I saw them wrestling! That could have easily gotten out of hand.
 
MathIsHard has a softest spot. :biggrin: That was really sweet.
 
Moe the crow rules! I loved that clip, thanks for posting it.
 
Most excellent! Now that's a cat that has something to crow about.
 
Math Is Hard said:
I was a little worried when I saw them wrestling! That could have easily gotten out of hand.

Same here. That's almost a Baby Huey situation.

Most excellent! Now that's a cat that has something to crow about.
:rolleyes:
 
  • #10
Lol. That clip was really funny. I thought it was most amazing that the crow was actually feeding the cat.

I would like to see what happens when the cat is full grown.
 
  • #13
Math Jeans said:
Talk about a smack in the face.
Well, the crow and kitten stand a much better chance in someone's backyard in the suburbs. Maybe they will fare better than the lamb and the lion.

What is it that makes these pairings cute anyhow? My fuzzy gene seems to be broken.
 
  • #14
Huckleberry said:
What is it that makes these pairings cute anyhow? My fuzzy gene seems to be broken.

I just think they're interesting because they are rare. There doesn't seem to be any reason for the crow to take this kind of an interest in the kitten, so it makes you wonder why something like this would happen.
 
  • #15
Math Is Hard said:
I just think they're interesting because they are rare. There doesn't seem to be any reason for the crow to take this kind of an interest in the kitten, so it makes you wonder why something like this would happen.
Also they are considered "natural enemies," species-wise (e.g. cat & bird).

I think these situations humanize the animals involved, and can either justify one's belief and hope that biology need not be destiny, or challenge one's belief and hope that biology is destiny.

Either way, they pique our interest.
 
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  • #16
I can't wait to see it!
 
  • #17
Huckleberry said:
Well, the crow and kitten stand a much better chance in someone's backyard in the suburbs. Maybe they will fare better than the lamb and the lion.

What is it that makes these pairings cute anyhow? My fuzzy gene seems to be broken.

I'm with you... Clearly this crow is crying out for a suicide intervention! I didn't realize that crows even had suicidal thoughts until now.
 
  • #18
Math Is Hard said:
I just think they're interesting because they are rare. There doesn't seem to be any reason for the crow to take this kind of an interest in the kitten, so it makes you wonder why something like this would happen.
I am curious about this also. I remember my psychology of personality professor saying that animals do not have emotions. I immediately assumed he had never befriended a pet. Didn't people at one time look at other people from 'uncivilized' cultures as animals? It was often the practice to treat them as such. So how can we gauge the possible emotional response of an animal such as a crow, especially in situations like this? Is it some haywire, but completely natural instinct; or is this a display of intentional compassion and perhaps moral behaviour?

I hope not. I don't want to be a vegetarian. That would give a whole new meaning to eating crow.
 
  • #19
This is very interesting. An avian adopting a mammal. Quite strange.
 
  • #20
Thats really sweet. I saw this a while back. I love crows since they are very intelligent animals and there's a pair that nest in a tree outside my window that have lived in the area for years. It was good seeing them rear a chick the year before last. I hope they have another this year and I wish they liked me enough to be friends with me and my cat (although I don't think Rosie would be as good with the crows).
 
  • #21
I loved it! Especially when the kitten tackled the crow and kicked it with its hind legs.

Thanks MIH!
 
  • #22
Friends?! I think that crow was taking complete advantage of the kitten, pecking at him, bullying him around, stealing his food, etc., it's no wonder the kitten finally got annoyed and pounced the crow! :biggrin:
 
  • #23
:eek: Did you sacrifice yourself in place of Tom Mattson MIH?

Why can't we have both?
 
  • #24
Crows are gregarious, though this one is a bit of a risk-taker. If you have crows around your place and want to lure them into photograph them, invert a small paper bag on your lawn with a rock or two to anchor it, with circles drawn on the bag to simulate owl eyes. It works! It takes a bit of time, but eventually, their curiosity gets the better of them.
 
  • #25
turbo-1 said:
Crows are gregarious, though this one is a bit of a risk-taker. If you have crows around your place and want to lure them into photograph them, invert a small paper bag on your lawn with a rock or two to anchor it, with circles drawn on the bag to simulate owl eyes. It works! It takes a bit of time, but eventually, their curiosity gets the better of them.

lol, doomed by their own intelligence.
 
  • #26
turbo-1 said:
Crows are gregarious, though this one is a bit of a risk-taker. If you have crows around your place and want to lure them into photograph them, invert a small paper bag on your lawn with a rock or two to anchor it, with circles drawn on the bag to simulate owl eyes. It works! It takes a bit of time, but eventually, their curiosity gets the better of them.

Yes, they are very clever. This particular crow was intelligent enough to remove a species from it's list of predators by domesticating them. Sure, the plan for domestication is only in its beginning phases, but in a few generation it may be world-wide. Then crows will begin worm farms and agriculture powered by cat drawn plows. Then it is inevitible that they create a system of barter leading to the concept of money. They will declare themselves Crows; beings separate from other animals, and philosophize about what it means to be a Crow. They begin governments based on these philosophies and petition the UN for a Crow version of 'human' rights.

But it all comes to an end when a Crow is murdered by an owl in a Walmart parking lot. The Crows demand that phony owls be removed from all public areas. The Crows strongarm the UN with Alfred Hitchcock shorts from the movie 'Birds." Negotiations with the UN fail and the Crows begin a campaign of carpet bombing our cities. The war escalates into total pet revolution. Without our pets, civilization eventually collapses.

Never trust a crow.
 
  • #27
One small problem: to sufficiently accommodate the diets of certain crows, cats need to be trained in the use of tools. New Caledonian crows use sophisticated tools of two varieties: hooked sticks and barbed leafs for insect fishing expeditions into tree branches.

Laboratory experiments confirm that cats probably lack the causal reasoning abilities necessary to be trained on such tasks, so the only plausible next step is for crows to begin designing robots. I am not unconvinced that such a project is going on in my back yard.
 
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  • #28
Huckleberry said:
I am curious about this also. I remember my psychology of personality professor saying that animals do not have emotions.
Statements like this are very strange to me (but I hear them often). If you ask the psychology professor where emotions arise, he/she will certainly say the limbic system. but if you press and ask him/her if humans are the only animals with a limbic system, then of course, he/she will say that's ridiculous.
 
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  • #29
When I was a kid, there was a crow stuck in some bushes near my house. When I tried to go towards it, I was ambushed by another crow that was apparently protecting it. I always found that fascinating.

Here's another interesting crow video: A crow crossing the street.
 
  • #30
morphism said:
When I was a kid, there was a crow stuck in some bushes near my house. When I tried to go towards it, I was ambushed by another crow that was apparently protecting it. I always found that fascinating.

Here's another interesting crow video: A crow crossing the street.

This is interesting. It's not just a crow crossing the street. They are using automobiles to crack nuts that they cannot crack themselves. They drop them in crosswalks and when the cars stop at a red light the crows retrieve their nuts. I wonder how long it will be before they realize that pressing the button makes the light turn red.

Crows also have the intelligence to make their own tools. Here is an example of some crow problem solving abilities. It uses an instrument as a tool, and when that tool is insufficient it modifies the design.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03ykewnc0oE&NR=1

Yep, crowbots aren't far behind.
 

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