Do Linear Space Properties Ever Fail in the Real and Complex Planes?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the properties that define a Linear Space, specifically questioning whether certain properties, such as the identity elements for addition and scalar multiplication, can fail in the Real and Complex planes. Participants explore the implications of these properties and their necessity in the definition of vector spaces.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions if the properties of linear spaces, specifically 1v = v and 0 + v = v, can ever fail in the Real or Complex planes.
  • Another participant seeks clarification on what is meant by "break down" in this context.
  • A participant asserts that if these properties do not hold, then the structure in question cannot be considered a vector space.
  • One participant expresses curiosity about the rationale behind including these properties in the definition of a Linear Space, suggesting they seem intuitive and fundamental.
  • Another participant emphasizes that these properties are crucial because omitting them would lead to the failure of many theorems related to vector spaces.
  • It is noted that most familiar linear spaces exhibit these properties, and the absence of such identities would lead to a different classification of the set.
  • A participant points out that the statements regarding additive and multiplicative identities are fundamental to defining operations within a vector space.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on whether these properties can fail in the Real or Complex planes, and the discussion reflects differing viewpoints on the necessity and implications of these properties within the context of vector spaces.

Contextual Notes

The discussion does not resolve the question of whether there exist spaces that satisfy all vector space axioms except for the two properties in question, leaving this as an open area for exploration.

Numeralysis
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I was wondering, some of the things that define a Linear Space such as:

[tex]v \in V[/tex] then [tex]1v = v[/tex] or [tex]\vec{0} \in V[/tex] such that [tex]\vec{0} + v = v[/tex]

They seem very obvious and intuitive, but, is there ever a time they break down in the Real plane? I think they might break down in the complex plane, but, I'm not too sure how they would.
 
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What do you mean, break down?
 
The two pretty obvious & intuitive properties. Where they don't work anymore; such that when you have v living in V and you multiply 1 by v, it longer equals v or add the zero vector it doesn't equal itself?
 
Then you don't have a vector space.
 
Exactly, but, I'm wondering when does this definition not hold true. These two properties seem pretty obvious, and pretty intuitive. More than anything, I'm wondering why are they included when defining a Linear Space. Other than for extra-proofing.

And if these definitions fail.
 
They are included because they are useful; there are many interesting theorems about vector spaces, and there are lots of things that can be modeled by vector spaces. If you omit some axioms such as 1v = v or 0 + v = v, then many of the theorems fail to be true.
 
They seem pretty intuitive, because every object that has been introduced to you as a linear space has those properties. If you have a set with an operation, we almost always use 0 and 1 to be defined as the additive and multiplicative identities; so if you had a set with an operation that had no such identity, we wouldn't call elements 0 and 1.

Off the top of my head I'm not able to think of a space that satisfies every vector space axiom except for those two.
 
The statements 0+v= v and 1v=v are really saying that there are additive and multiplicative identities and telling you particularly what they are (0 & 1).
 

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