Do Stars Fuse Elements Heavier Than Iron Before Imploding?

  • Context: Undergrad 
  • Thread starter Thread starter LightningInAJar
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Black hole Hole
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the fusion of elements in stars, particularly focusing on whether stars can fuse elements heavier than iron before undergoing implosion. Participants also explore the reasons why iron does not produce energy during fusion and the nature of black holes in relation to stellar processes.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that black holes are stars that fuse elements until they reach iron, which does not radiate energy to counterbalance gravity.
  • Another participant corrects this by stating that a black hole is a region of spacetime from which light cannot escape, and that it is different from a star.
  • It is noted that iron has the highest binding energy per nucleon, making it energetically unfavorable to fuse into heavier elements.
  • A participant explains that heavy elements are produced in supernovae, but the fusion process becomes energy-absorbing rather than energy-producing beyond iron.
  • There is a discussion about the binding energy per nucleon and how it changes with atomic mass, leading to the conclusion that fusion of elements heavier than iron does not release energy.
  • One participant points out that iron creation can produce radiation in certain cases, such as the decay of Ni-56 to Fe-56.
  • A later reply emphasizes the need for a better understanding of nuclear processes to grasp the concepts discussed.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement regarding the initial claims about black holes and the nature of stellar fusion processes. There is no consensus on the implications of iron fusion and its energy dynamics.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes various misunderstandings about stellar processes and nuclear reactions, with some participants correcting earlier claims without reaching a definitive resolution on the main question posed.

LightningInAJar
Messages
274
Reaction score
36
TL;DR
Anything beyond iron?
I know black holes are stars that fuse together elements until they reach iron which doesn't radiate energy to counterbalance the gravity, but do any stars fuse elements heavier than iron that would once again give off energy prior to it imploding?

By the way, why doesn't iron creation create radiation?
 
Astronomy news on Phys.org
LightningInAJar said:
Summary:: Anything beyond iron?

I know black holes are stars that fuse together elements until they reach iron which doesn't radiate energy to counterbalance the gravity
This is incorrect. A black hole is a region of spacetime from which light cannot escape.

Regarding fusing of elements: Iron has the highest binding energy per nucleon. It would not be energetically favorable to fusion it to heavier elements.
 
As Orodruin says, a black hole is not just a star that's stopped fusing. That leads to a (super)nova and some larger stars collapse into black holes, but a black hole is very different from a star.

All sorts of heavy elements get produced in supernovae. I'm sure they get produced in tiny quantities in during normal operation, but it's an energy absorber not a producer so the process isn't self-sustaining. That's why you don't see iron-burning stars - it's the fusion equivalent of trying to light ashes.

As to why iron doesn't produce energy, the binding energy per nucleon changes as the atomic mass rises. It first increases, meaning that one helium atom needs slightly more energy to separate it into four nucleons than two deuterium atoms do. So two deuterium atoms combining into one helium leaves a bit of energy over.

But that stops at iron, and then the trend reverses. Very heavy elements need less energy to separate into components than smaller ones, so combining smaller atoms costs energy. Splitting large atoms into smaller ones (down to iron) releases energy - which is nuclear fission.

The underlying reason for the differences in binding energy is the balance between the strong force holding the nucleus together and increasing amounts of electrostatic repulsion between the increasing number of protons.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: sophiecentaur
LightningInAJar said:
Summary:: Anything beyond iron?

I know black holes are stars that fuse together elements until they reach iron which doesn't radiate energy to counterbalance the gravity
You have a very bad habit of starting threads with "I know that" followed by something totally false. These are bad starts. Please stop this.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: sophiecentaur, Bystander, russ_watters and 1 other person
LightningInAJar said:
Summary:: Anything beyond iron?

By the way, why doesn't iron creation create radiation?
It does in some cases, for example the decay of Ni-56 to Fe-56.

Before you can understand the nuclear reactions involved in stellar evolution and collapse you will need a better understanding of the most important nuclear processes: fusion, fission, alpha and beta decay - you might start by searching for "binding energy curve" and "decay chain".

As this thread is based on a misunderstanding that has been addressed, it is closed.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: sophiecentaur and Bystander

Similar threads

  • · Replies 28 ·
Replies
28
Views
4K
  • · Replies 17 ·
Replies
17
Views
5K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 48 ·
2
Replies
48
Views
6K
  • · Replies 19 ·
Replies
19
Views
5K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
  • · Replies 30 ·
2
Replies
30
Views
5K