Do you think the uncertainty principal will ever be solved

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle (HUP) and whether it can be "solved" or overcome. Participants explore various interpretations and implications of the HUP within quantum mechanics, touching on philosophical aspects and technical details.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants inquire about existing theories that might "solve" the HUP.
  • One participant mentions Ozawa's proposed uncertainty relation as an alternative to Heisenberg's formulation.
  • Another participant argues that the HUP is fundamental to nature and not something that can be solved, suggesting it is a misunderstanding to view it as a limitation.
  • Some participants express that the HUP does not limit practical applications of quantum mechanics, citing technologies like lasers and DVDs as evidence.
  • There is a contention regarding whether the implications of the HUP are merely philosophical or if they have concrete experimental support.
  • A later reply emphasizes that the HUP is a theorem in quantum mechanics that describes measurement distributions, countering the notion that it is "all in our mind."
  • One participant raises questions about the foundational aspects of quantum mechanics and the nature of physical laws, suggesting that resolving the HUP would require a deeper understanding of quantum mechanics as a whole.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of the HUP, with some arguing it is a fundamental aspect of quantum mechanics while others suggest it is a philosophical issue. There is no consensus on whether the HUP can be "solved" or if it represents a limitation in understanding quantum systems.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference various interpretations of quantum mechanics and the implications of the HUP, indicating a reliance on differing philosophical perspectives and interpretations of quantum theory. The discussion highlights the complexity and nuance surrounding the concept of uncertainty in quantum mechanics.

john88888
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are there any theories right know to solve it
 
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Hi,
As far as I know, Ozawa proposed a new uncertainty relation replacing that of Heisenberg.
Regards.
ref.
“Universally valid reformulation of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle
on noise and disturbance in measurement” Physical Review A, vol. 67, pp.
042105-1 042105-6, April 2003.
 
john88888 said:
are there any theories right know to solve it

What do you mean by "solve"?
 
john88888 said:
are there any theories right know to solve it

it is solved according to most qm interpretations. The only ones that question it are hardcore deterministic theories such as Bohmiam mechanics.

Some folks just can't handle the uncertainty :-)
 
I believe he means, "will we ever overcome the limitations it seems to impose", as though it were Measurement Problem. I think that is a fundamental misunderstanding of what the HUP is, and means.

It appears to be fundamental to nature (see CMB) and not something to be "solved".
 
Geigerclick said:
I believe he means, "will we ever overcome the limitations it seems to impose", as though it were Measurement Problem. I think that is a fundamental misunderstanding of what the HUP is, and means.

It appears to be fundamental to nature (see CMB) and not something to be "solved".

but it does not actually limit anything. We don't need the certainty to be able to work with, or manipulate quantum states. If it was a problem we wouldn't have lasers, dvds etc...

The "problem" is all in our mind, its a philosophical issue regarding determinism.
 
Coldcall said:
but it does not actually limit anything. We don't need the certainty to be able to work with, or manipulate quantum states. If it was a problem we wouldn't have lasers, dvds etc...

The "problem" is all in our mind, its a philosophical issue regarding determinism.

I'm just attempting to guess at what he meant, based on what many people believe about the HUP, I am by no means arguing against QM formalism.
 
Geigerclick said:
I'm just attempting to guess at what he meant, based on what many people believe about the HUP, I am by no means arguing against QM formalism.

sorry i know, i was just sort of agreeing with you :-)
 
Coldcall said:
sorry i know, i was just sort of agreeing with you :-)

High five! :wink:
 
  • #10
Coldcall said:
but it does not actually limit anything.
Of course it does.

Coldcall said:
The "problem" is all in our mind, its a philosophical issue regarding determinism.
The uncertainty relation is a theorem in QM that tells you something about how the results of a large number of measurements will be distributed, and there are no experiments that contradicts it, so I don't know how you can say that it's "all in our mind".
 
  • #11
Coldcall said:
but it does not actually limit anything. We don't need the certainty to be able to work with, or manipulate quantum states. If it was a problem we wouldn't have lasers, dvds etc...

The "problem" is all in our mind, its a philosophical issue regarding determinism.

Would you consider the deBoer effect something only in our minds?

Zz.
 
  • #12
Fredrik said:
Of course it does.


The uncertainty relation is a theorem in QM that tells you something about how the results of a large number of measurements will be distributed, and there are no experiments that contradicts it, so I don't know how you can say that it's "all in our mind".

I was saying the HUP does not limit our ability to manipulate technology using qm. I think you've misunderstood what i was saying.
 
  • #13
ZapperZ said:
Would you consider the deBoer effect something only in our minds?

Zz.

whats the deboer effect? Sorry for my ignorance :-)
 
  • #14
Why is it the case that two or more fermions cannot be in the same state?

Why does the Dirac Eq. work?

Why does the Rosenbluth cross section for electron- proton scattering work?

Why does force cause acceleration?

Good physics allows generalizations; QM does so in spades. The ultimate issue in QM is: why does it work? For the most part, physicists accept HUP because it is fundamentally tied to the very basics of QM, and has been so since the 1920s. Fredrik has it exactly right.

My take is: to "solve" the HUP requires us to "solve" QM And, to "solve" QM requires us to solve E&M, classical mechanics and so on. Why are the notions of force, mass, electric charge, angular momentum, among others, useful ? Quite a few years ago, Wigner pondered why mathematics works in describing Nature -- who knows? So, we take it for granted that our mathematically expressed theories have validity -- if their conclusions are confirmed by experiments. Usually we try to expand the range of validity of our theories until we run into conflicts with experiment.

In short, we take much for granted, including making inferences from theories that seem to be successful, that is supported by experiments. The HUP is a perfect example of such an inference. And, when you study scattering experiments,for example, the HUP jumps off the page. An example that I think shows the basics of the HUP starts with a position eigenstate -- for simplicity, we're talking NR QM. Look at the momentum distribution of this state. Then the basics of the HUP will be writ large.

So, more generally, why do we need to work with non-commuting variables in QM?
Regards,
Reilly Atkinson
 

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