Does Sundance preon kit match Kovtun-Zee composite neutrino?

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SUMMARY

The discussion centers on the compatibility of the Sundance preon model, developed by O. Bilson-Thompson, with the composite neutrino concept proposed by P. Kovtun and A. Zee. The Sundance model, which incorporates topological elements and framed braids, aims to explain the structure of elementary particles, while Kovtun and Zee's work introduces the idea of neutrinos as composites of more fundamental constituents with an SU(2) quantum number termed "lepospin." The interaction of these theories could provide insights into quantum gravity and the behavior of neutrinos, although the participants express skepticism about the validity of either model.

PREREQUISITES
  • Understanding of quantum gravity concepts
  • Familiarity with the Sundance preon model and its implications
  • Knowledge of composite particle theories in particle physics
  • Basic grasp of SU(2) symmetry and quantum numbers
NEXT STEPS
  • Research the implications of the Sundance preon model on quantum gravity theories
  • Study the paper "Symmetries and Generalisations of Tri-Bimaximal Neutrino Mixing" by P. F. Harrison and W. G. Scott
  • Examine the role of topological models in particle physics, particularly in relation to neutrinos
  • Investigate the concept of lepospin and its relevance to composite particle theories
USEFUL FOR

Physicists, researchers in particle physics, and students interested in the intersection of quantum gravity and composite particle theories will benefit from this discussion.

marcus
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new paper by Kovtun and Zee
http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-ph/0604169
idea of composite neutrino

earlier we discussed Sundance Bilson-Thompson topological preon model incorporated into quantum gravity by Lee Smolin
and described in the online Lecture Series Introduction to Quantum Gravity, Lecture #25.

It might be interesting for QG if the Sundance preon model is successful because it fits in naturally with spin networks. So my question is:

this composite neutrino idea of Kovtun and Zee, how well does it compat with the Sundance kit for building all the basic particles from framed braids?
 
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Just curious, probably no reason to suppose that either one is right---but it would be interesting if they happened to compat.

A schematic model of neutrinos
Pavel Kovtun, A. Zee
4 pages

"We show that the observed pattern for neutrino mixing arises naturally if neutrinos are composites of more elementary constituents carrying an SU(2) quantum number we call lepospin."

lepospin sounds vaguely like "liposuction", something I think they like to do a lot in SouthCalifornia---has the right ring for a Santa Barbara Kitpee idea.:smile:

here is the Sundance paper:
http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-ph/0503213
A topological model of composite preons
Sundance O.Bilson-Thompson
9 pages, 3 figures

"We present a modification of the preon model proposed independently by Shupe and Harari. A basic dynamics is developed by treating the binding of preons as topological in nature and identifying the substructure of quarks, leptons and gauge bosons with elements of the braid group B_3. Topological considerations and a straightforward set of assumptions lead directly to behaviour consistent with much of the known phenomenology of the Standard Model. The preons of this model may be viewed as composite in nature, and composed of sub-preons, representing exactly two levels of substructure within quarks and leptons."

===============
A. Zee is a great guy and writes entertainingly and has creative ideas but he should know to keep the T in lepto and not erode it down to lepo--it loses crisp and gets like jello. and the Greek meaning is lost.
 
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that is interesting, he should have some correspondence with A. Zee and Kovtun then, should not he?

any idea how this fits in with QG spin networks?
 
marcus said:
...any idea how this fits in with QG spin networks?

Marcus, surely you (and others) know by now what I would say to that. :smile:
I would quite like to hear some other opinions.
 
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Kea said:
Marcus, surely you (and others) know by now what I would say to that. :smile:
.

oops:rolleyes:

actually I don't, but I guess I'm not eager to find out

I would quite like to hear some other opinions.

I hope some are forthcoming!
 
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The following also seems to be relevant. CarlB references an older paper of theirs.

Symmetries and Generalisations of Tri-Bimaximal Neutrino Mixing
P. F. Harrison W. G. Scott
http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-ph0203209

:smile:
 
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"We show that the observed pattern for neutrino mixing arises naturally if neutrinos are composites of more elementary constituents carrying an SU(2) quantum number we call \mathfrak{LEPOSPIN}."

CarB and the Tri-Bi guys could, I suppose, have discovered this very same quantum number only they made up a different name for it!
 
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marcus said:
that is interesting, he should have some correspondence with A. Zee and Kovtun then, should not he?

CarlB was planning to travel this weekend to the AIP symposium, so perhaps he is not reading the forum. If someone has his private email or phone (the later preferably) it could be worth to alert him of the new preprint (an SMS should be enough?).
 
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they would have to use a subgroup though. not sure if that goes together. but it would be good to try and give the sundance-stuff some attachment to reality. best,

B.
 

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