Elastic collision formulas -- Derivation blunder

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the derivation of formulas related to elastic collisions, focusing on the mathematical relationships between variables involved in the collision equations. Participants explore the algebraic manipulation required to express one variable in terms of others, while addressing potential errors in the derivation process.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • The original poster (OP) presents a series of equations derived from the conservation of momentum and kinetic energy in elastic collisions, attempting to isolate the variable x.
  • The OP expresses confusion over the results obtained from different forms of the equations, noting discrepancies in the values calculated for x using different methods.
  • Some participants indicate that the mathematical expressions provided by the OP are difficult to read and follow, suggesting a need for clearer formatting.
  • The OP questions where the mistake lies in their derivation, highlighting specific numerical examples that yield conflicting results.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the correctness of the derivation or the source of the discrepancies. The discussion remains unresolved, with differing opinions on the clarity and validity of the presented equations.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes complex algebraic manipulations that may depend on specific assumptions or definitions not fully articulated. The lack of clear formatting contributes to the difficulty in following the mathematical reasoning.

luckis11
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elastic_collision
μα+mβ=μx+my,
μα^2+mβ^2=μx^2+my^2
I want x in relation of all variables except y, therefore I need to replace-eliminate y:
μα+mβ=μx+my =>y=(μα+mβ-μx)/m
μα^2+mβ^2=μx^2+my^2=>y=((μα^2+mβ^2-μx^2)/m)^0.5
and it is eliminated if I equate these two parts of the two equalities with which y is equal to:
((μα+mβ-μx)/m)^2=(μα^2+mβ^2-μx^2)/m=>
(μα+mβ-μx)^2/m=μα^2+mβ^2-μx^2,
A=μα, Β=mβ, C=μx,
(A+B-C)^2=Α^2+ΑΒ-ΑC+AB+B^2-BC-AC-BC+C^2= Α^2+2ΑΒ-2ΑC+B^2-2BC+C^2=>
μ^2α^2+2μαmβ-2μαμx+m^2β^2-2mβμx+μ^2x^2=mμα^2+m^2β^2-mμx^2
so far wolframalfa answers x=(-m α + 2 m β + α μ)/(m + μ) which is the solution according to theory. But the last relation is equivalent with the trionym:
μ^2x^2+mμx^2-2μαμx-2mβμx+μ^2α^2+2μαmβ-mμα^2=0
A=μ^2+mμ, Β= -2αμ^2-2mβμ, C=μ^2α^2+2μαmβ-mμα^2,
Αx^2+Bx+C=0=>x=(-B+-(B^2-4AC)^0.5)/(2A)=>
x=(-(-2αμ^2-2mβμ)+-((-2αμ^2-2mβμ)^2-4(μ^2+mμ)(μ^2α^2+2μαmβ-mμα^2))^0.5)/
(2(μ^2+mμ))
And the latter equation is what also wolframalfa answers now!
And not only this does not seem how it can be factorized, but replacing arithmetic values:
(-m α + 2 m β + α μ)/(m + μ), m=2, α=3, β=5, μ=7=>35/9
(2*3*7^2+2*5*7*2+((-2*3*7^2-2*5*7*2)^2-4(7^2+7*2)(3^2*7^2-3^2*7*2+2*3*5*7*2))^0.5)/(2(2^2+2*7))=245/18≠35/9
(2*3*7^2+2*5*7*2-((-2*3*7^2-2*5*7*2)^2-4(7^2+7*2)(3^2*7^2-3^2*7*2+2*3*5*7*2))^0.5)/(2(2^2+2*7))=21/2≠35/9
whereas:
(7^2)x^2+2*7*x^2-2*49*3x-2*2*5*7*x+49*3^2+2*7*3*2*5-2*7*3^2=0=>x=35/9
Where is the mistake?
 
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unreadable...
 
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Arjan82 said:
unreadable...
Agreed. Thread closed for Moderation...
 
Thread will remain closed. I have asked the OP to start a new thread using the "LaTeX Guide" link below the edit window, and pay attention to good paragraph structure and whitespace.
 

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