Elementary particles and fermat's principle

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the relationship between elementary particles and Fermat's principle of least time, exploring whether all elementary particles, such as electrons and protons, follow this principle similar to photons. The scope includes theoretical considerations and quantum mechanics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Technical explanation, Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant asserts that photons follow Fermat's principle of least time and questions if all elementary particles do as well.
  • Another participant explains that everything in nature classically follows the principle of extremal action, where the action is extremized over the history of the system, and discusses the implications for quantum mechanics.
  • A subsequent participant seeks clarification on whether the paths of elementary particles are also considered extremal.
  • Another reply challenges the idea, suggesting that while classical paths approximate particle behavior, quantum mechanics introduces complexities that prevent a straightforward application of Fermat's principle to all elementary particles.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus; there are competing views regarding the applicability of Fermat's principle to elementary particles, with some arguing for its relevance and others emphasizing the quantum mechanical nature of particle behavior.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the limitations of classical mechanics in describing quantum phenomena and the dependence on the interpretation of action in quantum mechanics. The role of path integrals is mentioned but not fully explored.

spidey
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Photons(light) follow the fermat's principle of least time...so do all elementary particles also follow fermat's principle of least time?..say electron,proton etc..
 
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As far as we know, everything in nature (classically) follows the principle of extremal action. Meaning that a quantity, [itex]S = \int\!dt\, (T - V)[/itex] is extremized over the history of the system. Here T is kinetic energy and V is potential energy. For light, the action is usually simply equal to the time it takes to propagate from source to destination.

Quantum mechanically, to find the probability of ending up at some point, you add up every possible path, weighing each path with a phase factor of [itex]e^{i S}[/itex], and square the result. For the most part, paths interfere destructively because they all have wildly different phase factors. But for paths where [tex]S[/tex] is an extremum (minimum, maximum, saddle point), you end up with a lot of paths with the same phase factor, and these constructively interfere. So as long as quantum effects aren't too strong, the most dominant contribution to the probability comes from that path where [tex]S[/tex] is an extremum. This is simply the classical solution to the Euler-Lagrange equations of motion.

Fermat's principle played an important role in de Broglie's development of his wave theory as well as to the principle of extremal action.
 
so you say for elementary particles like electrons also follows extremal action...the path traversed by all elementary particles is also extremal..is it correct
 
Well... no. For the most part, their behaviour is well approximated by their classical paths, but we live in a quantum mechanical world and there's just no getting around that =)

Read up on path integrals if you like.
 

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